Explore the uncharted territories of taboo with me, Venus, as I welcome Pagan, a race play aficionado and founder of the The4Whoresmen, on a journey that delves into his unique sexual interests and experiences. Buckle up as we venture into Pagan's story of his upbringing in a hyper-religious environment and the subsequent questioning of his beliefs, leading him to the thrilling and provocative world of interracial cuckolding and race play. Brace yourself for an intriguing tale of a sex magick triad ceremony, where a woman pledged herself to Pagan and the interracial lifestyle. Discover the unique energy dynamics involved and how this ceremony fostered a profound, powerful connection.
As we delve deeper, the conversation unveils a crucial and sensitive topic - race play and the N-word. Pagan, drawing from his personal experiences, underscores the significance of consent and dialogue when adventuring into race play. The discussion also focuses on how real-world dynamics shape our kinks, and the necessity for permission in race play. Settle in for an intense episode!
Links:
Pagan on Twitter - https://twitter.com/PaganBlackBull
Pillow Talk Events - https://www.venuscuckoldress.com/events
Destination Links for Venus - https://linktr.ee/venuscuckoldress
Explore the uncharted territories of taboo with me, Venus, as I welcome Pagan, a race play aficionado and founder of the The4Whoresmen, on a journey that delves into his unique sexual interests and experiences. Buckle up as we venture into Pagan's story of his upbringing in a hyper-religious environment and the subsequent questioning of his beliefs, leading him to the thrilling and provocative world of interracial cuckolding and race play. Brace yourself for an intriguing tale of a sex magick triad ceremony, where a woman pledged herself to Pagan and the interracial lifestyle. Discover the unique energy dynamics involved and how this ceremony fostered a profound, powerful connection.
As we delve deeper, the conversation unveils a crucial and sensitive topic - race play and the N-word. Pagan, drawing from his personal experiences, underscores the significance of consent and dialogue when adventuring into race play. The discussion also focuses on how real-world dynamics shape our kinks, and the necessity for permission in race play. Settle in for an intense episode!
Links:
Pagan on Twitter - https://twitter.com/PaganBlackBull
Pillow Talk Events - https://www.venuscuckoldress.com/events
Destination Links for Venus - https://linktr.ee/venuscuckoldress
Coming up on this episode of the Venus Cuckolders podcast.
Speaker 2:There is a taboo and a charge around it, so there's power there. So I'm interested in Venus and harnessing that. So I had a couple and they wanted to. I'll say, like, sit in ceremony with me and do some sex magic that was specifically interracial. They came out and then it was her cuck, myself and her, and we're in a triangle and in the center of it, you know, surrounded by candles, and in the center of it we had the incense burning and I went through a ceremony with them and, speaking of race play, like she calls me Black God, that's what she calls me Okay, which is so fucking hot, you know, when people get married and then they remove their vows type thing. She wanted to be married to the interracial lifestyle and she wanted me to officiate that.
Speaker 1:You are now listening to the Venus Cuckolders podcast, a place to learn all things cuckolding for the curious, the passionate and the sexually empowered woman who wants it all. Go to Venus Cuckolderscom. You'll find the new Queens Quarters fan destination, book a one to one chat with me, listen to the private podcast and even get access to my secret Snapchat group where I share some of my most intimate encounters. Now sit back, make yourself comfortable and let's dive right into this episode. Welcome everyone to this show, welcome, welcome. Welcome. I'm your host, venus. This is the Venus Cuckolders podcast. Thanks for joining me today. Today, I have such a special episode. As I'm sure you heard in the trailer, it's epic. I have a very special guest, my friend Pagan. He is a race play enthusiast and the founder of the four horsemen. Yes, you'll learn what that is. And let me start out by saying that not all cuckolding couples enjoy interracial cuckolding. This is just one aspect of it, but for those of you who do enjoy interracial cuckolding, you are likely going to love this show. Today, pagan shares a very sexy story of a sex magic ceremony he was a part of recently, where they harnessed the power of BBC and she get this married into the interracial lifestyle. Yes, this was an actual ceremony. It's like nothing I have ever heard before. This is really on a whole other level And I think it's pretty fucking cool. Keep an eye out for an upcoming pillow talk event where I will have Pagan and the couple on to talk about all the further details of this, this event, this ceremony that we did, because there's so much more to it. There's so many juicy details that we didn't get into in the show today, but I can't wait to dive into that. So make sure you go to venuscuckledresscom, check out the events page, and shortly there will be some information posted on there about the pillow talk event that will feature Pagan and this amazing couple. All right, are you ready to jump into this episode today? I'm so ready. Let's do it. Here we go. All right, joining me on the show today I have my very good friend, pagan. He is the founder of the Four Horsemen and he's going to explain what that's all about, and he also describes himself as a practitioner of consensual, ethical race play as art, and yes, we are going to get into that. So welcome to the show, pagan. Say hello to all of the listeners.
Speaker 2:Hello all of Venus's listeners. Hello Venus, it's good to be back. How are you?
Speaker 1:Oh great, i am wonderful. I'm so excited for this conversation. So, for those of you listening, yes, pagan has been on the show once before, and I think it was, i don't know, a couple years ago maybe, and we talked about gang bangs, we talked about setting the mood, we talked about race play. So it was a great episode And we're going to kind of dive into things a little bit more for this show today about the bull experience. So I'm super excited to be able to have this conversation. I will link the previous episode that you've been on on the show. I'll link it in the show notes for today, so if you're interested in catching that, you can. Okay, pagan, so tell us in a nutshell your personal story. How did you come to where you are today?
Speaker 2:In a nutshell. In a nutshell, i'm a preacher's kid And it hasn't been lost on me how many people that were raised in a hyper religious environment end up freaky as people on your podcast. So I think that that may be where it starts, in terms of when you put someone in a bottle, they want to break out of the bottle, you know. So I think that that kind of led me to starting to question things. But it was really cloistered, hyper religious environment. And then, when I started to question things and look outside the box, there's this theory I have that we are who we are Until the moment they smack you on your ass when you come out of your mother, like there's a you that is uninfluenced by the outside world, and then you get pulled out and smacked on the ass and there's fluorescent lights and somebody's cutting an umbilical cord and they're saying you got to do this and that and it starts right there And it never ends until we stop it. So I stopped it at one point. I'm so lucky that I was able to just say wait, i want to get off the train. And then I started to figure out what I wanted to do, and part of that was I've always been sexual. It's always been I was. I was a virgin when I got married in 22. That's how cloistered the religious it was. So I remember, because my wife was more experienced than me, she was, she was in my religion, but she got kicked out for a fucking. So that tells you a lot about the kind of guy I was. Like I was already looking for, like, yeah, i want more. I don't want a virgin to get a. Two of us can be virgins in a room. But it was interesting because on our wedding night She was like, okay, this isn't your first time, and it was, but I was. Just, i've always been attuned to sexuality. So anyway, that was kind of my journey. And then once I started to question things, i got married too young. There was nothing wrong with us, we weren't cheating or anything like that, but I just had to step away and say like I've got to figure out myself first. So I got divorced and I also, and because of my religion, i had to leave the religion and I had to leave my wife and all my friends at the same time. So it just snapped my reality in half, you know. But I gotta say it was all worth it. because I got to that baby before it got smacked And I asked myself what do I think? What do I want? Not with society, or religion or family, or all three of them working together. What is mine, for instance, moral values, as opposed to what the religion says they are? Yeah, you know, what do I feel about gay people as opposed to what my religion taught me since I was a child, to think about them. Right, you know these kinds of questions some people just never asked. So that led me into my first four days after I got divorced, into the lifestyle, and I remember the first thing I did Venus was there was a woman who was in my small town on the East coast and she was doing like content, but this was back in the day before, only fans and all that. And so I went to a content party because, like most single guys, you go to the first thing someone invites you to. That's the thing. So I did that And that's what led me to say the first party. I remember I was in that room. There's a bunch of guys, one girl shooting content. I remember looking around, going, okay, this guy's really cool, this guy is really cool, the rest of these guys not so much, and I started. I didn't know them, but I was formulating the four horsemen at that time, so that can kind of lead us to that, i guess.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that does lead us to the four horsemen, so I love the name. What exactly? what is the four horsemen?
Speaker 2:So the four horsemen. And you're right, the reason why it's called the four horsemen is because number one it sounds fucking cool. The second thing is, though, i wanted the number to be small. I don't want people to think they can give me for 12 guys or giant gang bangs. There's crews out there that do that. That's great. More power to them. My thing is more quality over quantity, so four is like the maximum that I usually put together, and that's for a woman that can handle it Most of the time. Most women can't handle four of us, like maybe the average guy, sure, but these are guys that I've scoped out And, to answer your question, i'm doing the work of when a woman says, hey, i like you, do you have a friend? I'm doing the work of finding those guys ahead of time so I can immediately say, yeah, and you don't have to worry about. I found this guy on FetLife, i found this guy on, you know, aff or whatever. I'm gonna put them all in the same room And I'm gonna expect us to magically go well, with people fucking who've just met and all their egos involved and all that The chances that that's gonna go as smoothly as it should for your optimum experience as a woman or a couple is highly unlikely. I can bring my guys with me and we've played in this sandbox before, so you can just relax. So that's the four holes.
Speaker 1:So you have this group of vetted guys who you know. You guys all just work well together in the bedroom.
Speaker 2:Exactly just like on your report card in kindergarten. plays well with others.
Speaker 1:Yes, So you're available for couples or single ladies, i'm assuming, and do they book you, or is this like a service for hire, or what is this?
Speaker 2:It is not for hire. You're not the first person that has admonished me that I should be, you know, doing this for some kind of monetary gain. I'm reticent to do that And I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but and you know more about this than I do, venus When something you love becomes something to get paid for, something has to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't want anything to change. I like it the way it is. Where I come from, we call it it's for the love, not to pay check, and that's where I want to keep it. That's something I enjoy And I don't get me wrong, i put together a thing, a hotel suite. You know, i live in, you know Los Angeles now, and it's not cheap, you know. So when I put something together, i do ask people or the guys to contribute, because the space and I'm bringing them free pussy. So step up. But the general thing that I try to keep in mind and this is just me, venus, it's my worldview. I'm not gonna ask the same of everybody. I'm in a position where I can figure out how to make this thing happen, and if a guy doesn't have as much money as the next guy, i still want him to be a part of it. So there's been times when I'm just like, hey, man, just bring the water, like bring a case of water, you know, because that takes one thing off my plate and I'm not humping a case of water up to the room. So you know, i try to include as opposed to exclude. So that's another thing about the money thing. So you know, for now it's kind of a free service. Ha, ha ha.
Speaker 1:And are these all like black bowls or Or a thing? Yes, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's just my brand. You know there's bowls of every race, yeah, but as we'll get into later incorporating race into this dynamic, you know it's not something I invented. If you look up Cucklidding, you're gonna notice a pattern. Yeah, Ha, ha ha, just a little, just a little bit, little bit, little bit in there, but I've leaned into that. I've leaned into like that's the brand, because you know, you know, let's be honest, if people are hitting me up nine times on a 10, they're not just randomly, blindly just saying, oh a guy, i didn't look at the pictures. They're looking for a black male, yeah, for whatever the reason. So I'm like cool, i will provide that for you. And if you want others, um, again, there's guys out there that'll do that, just not my brand. My niche is very specific.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok, let's dive into it, because Yeah. I love this topic. I love it. It's also very controversial And it's so It's hard to get people to talk about it. It is, i would imagine.
Speaker 2:for you Yeah. Like yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 1:It was like what. Two, three years ago I started doing pillow talk events And I remember the minute I would bring up race play. It would be like fucking crickets. Yes, yes, silence in the room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean what? Yeah, it's 2023, Venus, I don't know. I mean, you can't talk about race openly And then you're mixing sex in with it. Are you crazy? You can't speak about it out loud? I mean, what are we doing? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:But honestly, honestly, this is not something I mean. Yes, i think a sexual preference for black men I mean, that's just something that happened to me. Naturally, i don't really think it was something that I was like, oh, i want to do that, but so there's been a preference there. But as far as race play, i would never have thought that I would be into that Like ever, and it's only because it was forced on me And I like that sounds bad, but it was, it was dropped on me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds bad, but also hot as fuck. It was a go on Right.
Speaker 1:I never would have consented to it beforehand. The use of the N word. I was like there's no fucking way. That is a hard no. Never, i ever do I want to use that or have that used in the room or anything like fuck Yeah. And I knew I but the my cut boyfriend that I was with I knew that shit turned him on and I never understood it And I told him I was like no, there's no fucking way. And then this bull, this black bull, that a first time I'd ever met him he knew nothing about me or my boyfriend And he fucking drops the N word in the middle of our fucking And I was like and my boyfriend's listening on the phone And I was like oh my God, i and he's making me say it And I was making me say it to my boyfriend And I was just like level 1000, uncomfortable as fuck, but also oddly turned on.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, ok, can I just say something? Yes, no one was near here with the fuck I'm talking about. Hearing you with that story is what everyone is here for. So OK, let me just. let me just ask you one question and then I'll answer all.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:You are a person and this is something that I would I would send out to all the listeners. Venus, like many people clearly, is a person who looked at clouds from both sides. You were on one side of it, saying fuck, no, this is offensive to me and what that sounds like And you can correct me if I'm wrong That was your real world politics. That was Venus who goes out in the world. It's like I'm not using the n word Like what the fuck? That's offensive, that's wrong. No, and that was your real world politics. Now you're in a scene in a bedroom, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not the real world. When that door closes, that's your private space where all that kinky shit can come out. We know that people do some stuff in the bedroom or the dungeon or whatever. That doesn't belong to the real world And in fact the real world informs what you find kinky in that space. The fact that you're let's say you're a, let's say you're a hyper feminist right And you're like I don't put up with any shit from a man, i take charge, blah, blah, blah. A lot of those women in the bedroom want to give up that power and be called slut and whore, whatever, not in the real world. Are you kidding? She'll punch you in the face, but because she's that in the real world, it turns her on so much more in the bedroom.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So my question to you is, because you looked at it from both sides and a lot of your listeners are on one side of the clouds right now. What the fuck? They're the old, you right?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What would you tell them about how you were able to come to enjoy something that you thought? what did you say? like times 10,000 or whatever, No, No. What would you say to those listeners? And then I'll go back to that interviewing and be the interviewer.
Speaker 1:Okay, i would definitely not recommend dropping this shit on somebody without consent, without talking about it beforehand. However, like I said, i would not have been okay with it beforehand, but the fact that it was such a weird, crazy experience because I was having this real fucking flood of emotions, of like uncomfortable, but also so turned on in the moment because of my boyfriend's reaction, and I was just like, oh damn, what have I opened here? And I remember the very first time that you and I started talking and I think I said something about race play and you were like, ooh, yes.
Speaker 2:I don't remember that, but that fucking sounds like me. I don't remember that sounds like me.
Speaker 1:So I just feel, like you know there has to be a lot of communication and consent. I mean that is a paramount. I would never fucking bring it. I never bring it up with a guy unless he brings it up to me, like ever Sure.
Speaker 2:Ever, ever ever.
Speaker 1:But you never really know what's gonna turn you on. I mean I had, there is no fucking way I would have signed up for that. But I was just like in the moment wow, what the fuck did I just experience Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the one last thing you said, it was turning your boyfriend on. It turned you on.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But outside of your boyfriend Venus, did it turn you on?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know if it would have.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think that was like. I honestly don't know If I think that was like the one part that for me made it like okay in that moment where I was like okay.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, this is good for him.
Speaker 1:And then, but man, it turned me on so much that I was like all right.
Speaker 2:And now you don't need a cook to enjoy. You enjoy it on your own right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So, okay, now I'll go back to answer your question, but I know everybody wanted to hear your story, Okay, so what you just talked about was permission. I get it. If you're white in this world, you need permission from black people. Okay, you know, we've all watched a comedy show or been at one, where the racial joke comes up and then certain people look at that group of people and make sure they're laughing first, right, because they don't feel permission to, because we're in a hyper sensitive world In 2023, sorry to be the old guy yelling at the kids on my lawn, but the world that we're in is progressed and so many great ways racially. But like humans, do we swing the pendulum so far that we're in a world where you can't even talk about race or bring it up. Usually, people are so reticent, especially if you're white you just like fuck that I'm not gonna get involved, i'm just gonna be quiet, And that's why you have crickets on those. You know pillow talk People are. They have thoughts, but they're not gonna express them publicly. I'm like fuck all that noise. I don't give a fuck. This is something that we all think about And if you hide it, that's fine, but it's still there And I rather talk about this. So What you needed was permission. That bull didn't do it in the right way, as you pointed out, but he got the right results. He gave you permission by starting it and then you took it and ran with it and now you enjoy it even more than you did before. So, yes, you should ask for permission first. I can even talk to you about a thing that I did recently in a minute that elevated race play in my experience to a whole other level. But I didn't start off by bringing the N word into the fucking conversation. We're off the top like this guy, but I can find out if you like race play by just asking you something that doesn't have something that's so charged in it, by just asking you the question like do you like to worship blackness? That question That tells me that you're into the racial aspect of it. And in those people when they lean in, then I lean in more and then they lean in and then we're using maybe the N word pretty soon, right, but it all depends and it caters to the person. That's one thing that bulls have to remember. Don't have a preformed thing from your last experience or your last thousand experiences that you fully inform the next experience with It should be partially informed by everything you learned, because that's called wisdom. But you shouldn't bring that with you and go. I know exactly what these next people? no, you don't. These next people are new people, so make sure you leave that space to cater it to them. And that's when you talk about proper bullet etiquette. That's the thing that every that's like the golden rule other than do no harm, which is the golden rule of the lifestyle, covers everything. Yeah, if you just make sure you don't bring your baggage from the last thing but just be informed by the last thing, so I do that. I cater it to that person. Some people are like I don't wanna use the N word, but I like race play, so there's different versions of it, and that's the other thing. And, forgive me, is one of the things we should maybe start out with is what is race play? by the way, what are we talking about when we say race play? Like there's people who will go to Splash Mocha, an event specifically catered for black males and couples who are usually not black to meet for an entire weekend and fuck all through a hotel. Some of those people will say I don't like race play And I'm like oh, don't you see? your foot is already in the pool. You're at a racial event. It's not like, oh, it just happens to be all these black men. It is catered to that, but they don't associate that with race play In their mind, using a racial epithet is race play, but the next person has another thing in their head. So race play, in my opinion, starts with if you're interested in some kind of interracial thing, and then you have levels that go from there.
Speaker 1:That's interesting because I never thought personally I never thought of race play as something other than using that kind of language in the bedroom, but I feel like And you're not wrong, you're not wrong. That is it, But there's also this surrounding grayness of-.
Speaker 2:Well, venus, exactly, i'm trying to bring us all together. So, whether you like it or you don't like it, right, trust me. I've talked to many black people who are not into race play, and I get why, right, i get why they don't want to go there. But I will say that if we can all just look at each other as we're on a spectrum if you like interracial at all, there's a version of it where you can take a step back and not be so judgy about people that like race play and say, well, actually I kind of like the color contrast and I like well, there's race involved there. So, joining those people. Don't have to go all the way into race play, but don't feel like they're so different than you. Just be more open-minded And then we can start to not have crickets when we have conversations, cause we're all in this together. We're way more alike. What is that thing? They use mice for testing, cause they're like 98% the same as human DNA. We're mostly the same in this lifestyle, and so we don't have to point fingers and go, oh my God, that person's weird or doing something. No, they're not doing it. Again, there's only one rule Do no harm. Consensual, ethical race play is adults agreeing to play a scene in a room that they're not out there in the world playing. Any more than you get spanked over the diaper that you have in a dungeon out in the real world, it's for that place.
Speaker 1:Right, and I love that you say it that way. Okay, what's this juicy story that we need the details of? Because, if you say it elevated- your race play to another level. That in my mind means it's like something out of the stratosphere.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, thanks for building it up so much. So I have to live up to that. No, it wasn't a stratosphere for me, so I've been interested recently. I'm a reader and I've been looking into sex magic, sometimes build old style MAGICK, and for some people that's like what the fuck are you talking about? Is that some Harry Potter shit? Like what is sex magic? And I would define this. I'm not saying it's magic at that sense or, you know, rabbit out of a hat. It's the power that intention can create. So and this resonates with me because I do have a religious background Whether something is real or not, i think a lot of times depends on us, and so when you put intention into something, it creates a power that I have found to be undeniable. And when it comes around race, you said something at the top of this conversation where you said, like you were interested in black men. Naturally, yes, there is this undeniable magnetic attraction between I would say for me especially black men and white women, especially in, like North America, and I think it's true all over the world, but we have an interesting history, especially in America, racially, that has charged the situation between black men and white women. It is the reason why white men for centuries did everything in their power to separate us Under pain of death. You know, it wasn't that long ago where, like my grandfather, if you looked at a white woman the wrong way could die. That's the world that we lived in. You can't tell me that. That isn't informing what we see today in terms of interracial sex interactions. There is a taboo and a charge around it. So there's power there. So I'm interested in this and harnessing that. So I had a couple who's also interested in that subject and they wanted to I'll say, like sit in ceremony with me and do some sex magic that was specifically interracial.
Speaker 1:I need to know what the sex magic is.
Speaker 2:So it is hard to describe, but the first session we did, i rented a space that's like a dungeon here in LA. It was really amazing. It was all white and In fact your listeners might want to see it. It's called Dungeon East in Los Angeles. You should Google it and you get a picture of the space that has happened in. I have a British valet Cuck who sets up the space for me. He's on another level. You've met this guy. I know him. He's just on another level as a single Cuck. He gets it. I'm able to have him there to be a butler, a Cuckler. He set up a space where I had these like yoga mats, but they were in a triangle. I had some items there that I'd collected from around the world in my travels that are everything from an incense burner to this ceremonial knife that's not like sharp that's used in Tibet All these things that have an intention for ceremony. At first they came out and then it was her Cuck, myself and her. We're in a triangle and in the center of it, surrounded by candles. In the center of it we had the incense burning. I went through a ceremony with them and, speaking of race play, she calls me Black God, that's what she calls me, which is so fucking hot. That started me thinking about where our three roles. I believe that the Cuck, the Cuckledrice and the Bull are like a sacred triangle. They're three-sided. If you deepen it, the best way I can describe it is you can turn a flat triangle into a pyramid. Now it has volume and space to fill in whatever we want. We started to fill that space. In that ceremony I went through with them, who I see them as. In this particular case, to me she was the wild woman. In mythology, for instance, hinduism, there's the wild woman who typically depicted her foot on a man's head and she's screaming and she has fire and what had? She's just the inner part of a woman that gets pushed down by patriarchy. Today She's free, and so on the Cuck side, i felt like he was in mythology. There's this thing called Oralborals. It's a snake that's eating its own tail. It's a circle, and to me the Cuck is such a valuable part of that triangle because he, for instance, in this case, was caged and he's not allowed to come until she lets him. And to me, that sexual energy that a Cuck builds up, all of that seed that she's keeping until she releases it. He's a snake eating his own tail. He has to re-input his own seed as opposed to letting it go like the bull gets to. So there's a charge that that Cuck, and it's part of why Cucks have that charge, why they're so heightened all the time. So, again, he's Oralborals And, by the way, while this is happening, they're both wearing collars that I've made for them. His collar has like a ring on it for the leash and it's an Oralboral circle of the snake eating a tail, like I fucking went all out for the shit. So it was amazing. I'm not going to get into every single thing because we don't have the time right now, but that was the ceremony we did that night. And then I put her on a Sivian. For those who don't know, it's basically yes, it's what makes those sounds that Venus is making. You can look up a Sivian, but it's basically a saddle that has a vibrating component and you can also attach dildos to it. So I walked her over to her throne and I put her on it and we started to begin our evening, and by that time I got her onto the Sivian. She was already there And then we started our night together, the three of us in terms of play. But that was just the one part for one night. The next night they had the idea that they wanted to have, basically, you know, when people get married and then they renew their vows type thing She wanted to be married to the interracial lifestyle And she wanted me to officiate that. So we did a ceremony. That was amazing, i mean Venus. They brought robes like these amazing robes, like you know, like you see, like with the hoods on them you know, but they were like really nice, like you didn't get these at. Like you know, target, i wore like a white one to represent her. She wore a black one to represent me and her cuck as well.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And they wrote vows that I barely added anything to. They wrote these to each other, giving herself to this fully to be black, owned to be part of this interracial lifestyle. So I officiated that and then we again, we shared each other. So that is one of those things that heightened. It's something that I've been thinking about for a while. This is the first time I've ever done one of these. I'm going to get better as I go, But it was mind blowing for all three of us. We're still, weeks later, just like what the fuck was that? That is magic. You know what I mean. That's what I mean. It's whatever you make it, It's whatever you believe and making it real in the world. And I got to say, Venus, we fucking made it real.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of speechless, i don't even Me too. Like what I am, what Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:If you asked me a few years ago, I would have said well, you know, I get it, I get it, But there's no going back now, Like again, you don't have to wear a robe and sit in ceremony, But you can have something where you initiate your marriage into another level as cuck and cuckledress or stag and vixen or whatever your dynamic is. You can, as a bull, say I like this level of interracial interaction, but I don't want to go this far. That's fine. Build it with the people that are like you. My head in sexuality is cracked fucking open right now because I took this to this next level, but I have to give all honor to this couple who allowed me to take it there with them. So you know, I can't wait till I see what tomorrow brings, but today I'm just like still in awe of what we created together. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm in awe. I'm like holy shit, that's epic. No wonder you said that it raised the level for you or went to the next level for you, for.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow For race play. That's amazing And I think maybe that'll become a thing like an actual thing where people aspire to that, like a lot of people aspire to that, who knows? Because the interracial cuckolding thing is a big thing. It is certainly not. Not every couple is into black bulls, like we said earlier. Like you said earlier, they come into all different races. I talk a lot about it on this show because I happen to be into that aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit, just a little bit, but.
Speaker 1:I think it's just fascinating that. All the conversations that you and I have had about race play has been fascinating. Hearing about the ceremony has been fascinating. Your advice for bulls to What did you say? To make sure that you don't use what you just experienced to have expectations for your next experience. Right Yeah, That's, I think, really, really important. So for all of the wannabe bulls out there who are listening on bulls or whatever, just make sure that that's something that you learn from Pagan Very good advice. Treat each person as a unique experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah Yeah, be informed by your past experiences, of course, right Yeah, but don't use it as a cookie cutter template for the next person. That guy that said the N-word to you right out the gate. He was doing that. He was using a past experience on you and did not ask permission, you know, or do it properly. Luckily, you guys were cool as fuck, so it all worked out. But he shouldn't expect everybody to react that way.
Speaker 1:No, no, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah it's. I guess the big thing for me is there's a full spectrum here And I think that couples, and especially for white couples in America, probably around the world, but especially in America we're living in such a place where you can't even talk about these things and your kinks that you would like to explore, and I would just say like I get that, but also feel like you can have an honest conversation with your bull and find the ones that are catering towards what you want. And I would also just say, if you can be unapologetic about your sexuality, everything that is racial is not racist, no matter what society is trying to say right now, at this moment, i try to have the macro view of things. Right now, we're in a very heightened I would say ever since 2020, with George Floyd, and you know there were riots and there was protesting We're in a very heightened area in terms of race and time, but if you pull back, who knows what 10 years or not where we're going to be. I don't even think this is sustainable, this place where you can't even talk about things.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I'm trying to have the macro view and wait this thing out And I think that, keeping in mind that everything that's racial is not racist, you can talk about these things and you're not a racist. You can enjoy these things and no matter how many people try to tell you, you're not a racist, any more than you're violent because you like BDSM in the bedroom, right. That doesn't make any sense. We all know these are different spaces, so that nuance is what I would like to bring. So if you're looking for this, just know there's bulls out there, and if you don't find one, you know, hit up your boy Pagan.
Speaker 1:Do you realize what you just did?
Speaker 2:I do Venus, I think I do.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, RIP your DMs. This is going to be crazy. Okay, There are there's so many more questions that I really want to ask you about. I feel like this is a conversation that needs to continue.
Speaker 2:So I'm just part one. Venus. Is this just part one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I feel like I need to have you on pillow talk so we can jump into this even more. That'd be so great.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:We have run out of time for our conversation today, unfortunately, but where can people reach out to learn more about you and the Four Horsemen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, So you can find me at Pagan and T, the number 4 WM on Twitter, and also Pagan Black Bull on Twitter, And then also, I am like I've recently started to use Instagram a little bit, So it's also Pagan Black Bull. I'm sorry, I underscore, am underscore Pagan on Instagram. Okay, So those are the three that you can probably reach me at.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Well, I'm still on Instagram too. We haven't been kicked off yet, So that's great. I will include those links in the show notes for today. Pagan, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I absolutely love speaking with you.
Speaker 2:It's always a pleasure, Venus. Anytime you want me, I'm here for you, baby.
Speaker 1:Oh, what a fun episode. That's going to be it for today's show. Thanks so much for joining me. Make sure you check out the events page at venuscuckledresscom. Keep an eye out for the live pillow talk event that's going to be coming up with Pagan and guests to talk about that very, very sexy ceremony that they had. So check it out, venuscuckledresscom the events page. You can also book a private chat with me on venuscuckledresscom. You can subscribe to the show. You can even submit a question for the show. There's lots you can check out on venuscuckledresscom. Don't forget to leave me a rating and review on Apple podcasts If you love the show. I would be so appreciative of that. And, of course, don't forget to follow me on Twitter. My handle is at cuckledressv. That's going to be it for this time. We'll see you next time. Bye.