A Deep Dive Into Cuckolding - With Dr. David Ley

Discover how cuckolding has shaped human sexuality through the ages as we unravel its historical threads with Dr. David Lay. His expertise in the field, especially reflected in his groundbreaking book "Insatiable Wives," illuminates the evolution of female sexual empowerment and its manifestations in modern relationships. This episode is a tapestry weaving the rich past of 'wittols' and infamous figures like Victoria Woodhull into today's narrative, where sexual freedom and female-led dynamics are increasingly celebrated.

Embark on a psychological odyssey where we confront the shame spiral that haunts many men with cuckolding fantasies and you'll be surprised to learn about the strong undercurrent of such fantasies among those who publicly uphold traditional values. We also dissect the social stigma surrounding infidelity and how cultural attitudes towards it vary surprisingly across the globe, offering a rare glimpse into the intricate dance between public personas and private desires.

As Cuck Week 2024 approaches, join us in championing a future of self-acceptance and the destigmatization of cuckolding. We recognize the profound impact of "Insatiable Wives" on couples exploring this lifestyle, emphasizing that desires do not compromise masculinity but rather celebrate the sexual flourishing of women. This episode isn't just a reflection on history and psychology; it's a call to embrace sexual diversity with open hearts and minds, inviting you to participate in a world that honors every individual's erotic blueprint.

David Ley is a clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author, based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He's the author of several books and research articles on sexuality, including his first book, Insatiable Wives, Women who Stray and the Men Who Love Them, which was the first book to examine the cuckolding and hotwife phenomenon. With Dr. Justin Lehmiller and Dan Savage, he published the first psychological study of the cuckold fantasy. Dr. Ley is a frequent guest in media around the world, with appearances in the New York times, CNN and Time Magazine, as well as Hustler and Playboy Magazines.

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2 Week Locked-In Love Challenge with Venus and Key Barrett, MSC
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Vote for The Venus Cuckoldress Podcast each day until January 27th! https://avn.com/awards/voting/favorite-adult-podcast#the-venus-cuckoldress-podcast

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Here's what's coming up on the Venus Cuckoldress podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:07

There was a word, witol W-I-T-T-O-L, which in old English that was the name for the willing husband who was his wife was cuckolding them.

Speaker 2: 0:20

So back in 1200, 1500, they already recognized that that was a thing. And the thing for me, as I dove into this and just started digging and paying attention to it and following threads, was I just found example after example of cuckolding back through history and people that you and I would kind of know about but not pay attention to. You just helped me make this interesting connection, because we see that shame spiral in a lot of modern research around people that struggle with pornography and we actually call it moral incongruence and what we find is that the people who identify as addicted to pornography are very likely to have grown up religious and to have a whole lot of shame about their sexual desires and they engage in the behaviors they watch, the kind of porn, but then they feel guilty and ashamed about it and they hate themselves and then oftentimes the only way to make that feeling go away is to then watch the pornography again, because when they're watching the pornography they feel better, but then again they hate themselves afterward.

Speaker 1: 1:37

This is the Venus Cuckolders podcast, a place to learn all things cuckolding for the curious, for the passionate and for the sexually empowered woman who wants it all. Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm your host, Venus, and this episode is airing two days before Cuck Week launches Cuck Week 2024. So, although it's a little bit early, I think it's a great way to get ready for the kick off of Cuck Week. And if you're wondering what Cuck Week is, it started I think it was like a couple years ago and Rose Careway, who narrated the audiobook version of Insatiable Wives, the book by Dr David Lay, her and her husband were thinking of ways to promote the release of that audiobook version and they came up with this genius idea to have a Cuck Week, and so it kind of just grew from there. But of course, now it has evolved into something a little bit more. And for me anyway, cuck Week is about this very special time to celebrate cuckolds and to help combat the stigma and the shame that is often felt by a lot of cuckolds, to let them know that they are loved and important and strong and really great partners, but also to combat the often misunderstood lifestyle that this is. So it's a great opportunity to do all of those things, and my guest today is Dr David Lay, and he tackles all of that head on. This is a deep dive into what cuckolding is, its fascinating history and how it affects those involved. If you have cuckolding fantasies which you probably do if you're listening to this this is a must listen episode. If you have a partner who has cuckolding fantasies, this is a must listen episode. If you're curious about what cuckolding is, this is a must listen episode. Basically, you have to listen. It is so, so good. Bookmark it, save it, download it to your device, whatever, but this is a really good show. And, by the way, you can also watch the video version of this podcast on my YouTube channel, and the link for that is in the show notes for today, but it's also if you could just search Venus Cuckolders. I'm pretty sure there's only one and it'll pop up. So that's if you want to have a look at the video version for today. All right, I have some announcements. I have three huge announcements. It seems like it's like that every January, january is like big, big for the show. Three huge announcements. The first one okay, we're going to talk about Cuck Week events. Obviously, I'm celebrating Cuck Week. This year. I've joined forces with some cucks and with Doc Chocolate and we're going to do some moan chats live on the moan app and also a special pillow talk event. So you can check out the show notes for today for links on where to find information about the events, but also you can just go to venuscuckolderscom and click on the events page.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Okay, second, returning it this year is the two week chastity challenge, locked in love with myself and key Barrett, author of locked in love and my favorite books of all time, and this year it starts on February 1st. Now, why would it start on February 1st, I wonder? Could it be that that makes unlocking day on Valentine's Day? Yes, that is it. So February 1st to the 14th, and this is a two week challenge. This is for anybody who wants to try chastity, but it's especially for couples who want to try chastity for the first time. Okay, there are major benefits to chastity in a relationship which most I think most couples are not aware of unless you've read the book locked in love or if you did the two week challenge last year. But there's a major, major benefits for your relationship and some of those are ending the barter system You'll learn about that and renewing courtship. It's amazing. And then also, it just makes for a better husband. Imagine that, our partner imagine that.

Speaker 1: 6:51

So if you want to sign up for the two week challenge, you can click on the link in the show notes and also get the information on venuscuckledresscom and the events page, of course and this it's totally free, by the way totally free to start up, and there's going to be moan chats, there's going to be prizes and this also gives you free access to the Queens Quarters community. This is a first, so make sure you sign up. It includes all of that. Okay, last but not least, this is a big favor. I have to ask this is so cool.

Speaker 1: 7:27

So this show, the Venus Cuckledress podcast, it's been nominated for an AVN award, which is pretty fucking cool, and I'm not sure who nominated me, but thank you, that's awesome. This is a big category for best adult podcasts. There's so many shows in this category and there's some really, really, really huge shows. So I doubt that I'm going to win, but you never know, right. Like one can dream, One can think about it. Like wouldn't that be so cool? I might actually win an award. Like that would be fucking awesome. I might die if that happened, but anyway, if you would be so kind as to give me your vote, that would be so cool. So if you go to the link in the show notes or just look up AVN awards best podcast, I'm in the list and you can vote once a day and up until the 27th.

Speaker 1: 8:28

So if this show has been beneficial to you in any way, if you found it inspirational, helpful, therapeutic, maybe entertaining, funny, hot all of the above, then please, please, please, vote for this show. You never know, it might happen. It might actually win an award and that would be like the coolest fucking thing ever. Okay, that's it. That's it for announcements, but pretty, please, can I have your vote? All right, let's jump in to the show today with my guest, dr David Lay. Here we go, joining me on the show. Today I have a returning guest. Dr David Lay is joining me to talk about cuckolding and his book on cuckolding insatiable wives, and just in time for this special Cuck Week episode. Welcome to the show, david.

Speaker 2: 9:30

Hey, thanks for having me Always great to talk.

Speaker 1: 9:34

So David Lay is a clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I hope I said that right, Albuquerque right.

Speaker 2: 9:43

You got it, Yep, From Bucks Bunny. You know should have taken a left turn in Albuquerque.

Speaker 1: 9:49

He's the author of several books, including research articles on sexuality, including his first book insatiable wives, women who stray and the men who love them, which was the first book to examine the cuckolding and hot wife phenomenon. With Justin Lay Miller and Dan Savage, he published the first psychological study of the cuckold fantasy. Dr Lay is a frequent guest in the media around the world and appearances in the New York Times, CNN, time Magazine, as well as Hustler and Playboy Magazine. Oh, playboy Magazine.

Speaker 2: 10:22

Yeah, yeah. I sent all, I sent my mom all of my, all of my media exposure. She really only read the articles, she didn't look at the pictures.

Speaker 1: 10:35

I love it. Well, I'm super happy to have you back on the show. The first time you were one of my first actual guests on the show because I did this podcast solo for like a year and then you were one of my first guests and I was like super nervous because I suck at interviewing people. I'm really good at like talking about holy shit. It's a whole other skill set to interview people. I loved your episode so much because you talked about the shame spiral. That, yeah, and that was so. I mean, I went into that interview with you not realizing that that what we talked about, what you said, was like a huge piece of the puzzle, puzzle that was missing for me. I didn't understand the behavior around that shame spiral that happens with guys, with cuckolding especially. So it was so important for me that episode, but it really resonated with a lot of other people as well. So thank you so much for doing that show. That was amazing.

Speaker 2: 11:36

You know it's funny.

Speaker 2: 11:37

I mean you just helped me make this interesting connection because we see that shame spiral in a lot of modern research around people that struggle with pornography and we actually we call it moral incongruence and what we find is that the people who identify as addicted to pornography are very likely to have grown up religious and to have a whole lot of shame about their sexual desires and they no-transcript, they engage in the behaviors, they watch, the kind of porn, but then they feel guilty and ashamed about it and they hate themselves and then oftentimes the only way to make that feeling go away is to then watch the pornography again, because when they're watching the pornography they feel better, but then again they hate themselves afterwards and so it's that shames.

Speaker 2: 12:32

It's that same shame spirals. It's say that 20 times fast, the same shame spiral I'm playing out in a lot of, in a lot of men that you know desire cuckolding, but may but worry that it makes them less of a man to want it, and it's so fascinating. It really only is around sexuality and sexuality conflict that we see that spiral playing out so clearly.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Oh it was. It was such a Revelation for me because, like I, I could put all the pieces together. Oh, this is why these guys are flaking and ghosting and you know all in one moment, and then disappear, and then they come back and I'm like what are you doing?

Speaker 2: 13:19

And I'll make a joke they come back because they came and they want to come again.

Speaker 1: 13:23

That's exactly it. I realized, like this is, I'm just feeding this person's need for Distributory fantasy yeah, fantasy. Yeah, so it was. It was really mind-blowing for me. Um so, let's talk about your book. Is they should wives? I love this book, this book. You wrote it a while ago. This was a minute ago, right.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Yeah, it's kind of amazing. I mean, I wrote that book Roughly in 2007, 2008, and I and I wrote it because I Encountered these couples that were living the hot wife and co-coat lifestyle and it was very under the radar at the time. There was no public discussion of this and and you know I'm a sex therapist and a psychologist and pretty sex positive but when I first encountered those couples, I Thought what they were doing was crazy. I thought you know that this can't be healthy. But both both of the first two couples that I met really were remarkably healthy, and so I had to ask myself, well, why did I assume that they were unhealthy?

Speaker 2: 14:28

I looked at the literature and there was nothing published about it, and so I said, well, you know, maybe I'll write about it and and ended up, you know, just educating myself about so much about female sexuality, about monogamy, about history of of sexuality, marriage, evolutionary psychology, and and it was just, it was, it was.

Speaker 2: 14:51

It was frankly, a lot of goddamn fun researching it and traveling around and and I would post ads on Craigslist at the time, because Craigslist still had personal's ads back then and that was where, at the time, a lot of co-cold couples were finding partners and I'd post ads, you know, saying hey, I'm interested in interviewing you about this, and they would send me naked pictures of the wife, which was always lovely and I would say, thank you very much, but I'm really just interested in interviewing you and and it was just, it was a blast.

Speaker 2: 15:27

And the cool thing is, you know, that book changed my life in that now a huge part of my career is doing expert witness work and training and supervision and speaking to other professionals about sexuality and about the way in which this moral judgment has intruded in here, and that we as clinicians need to be very careful about that. And I do a lot of education, like of juries and judges, about, you know, the reality of sexuality and female sexuality included, as opposed to the myths that people have. And and I went on and wrote two more books and you know, and I published pretty frequently on a lot of these issues, but All of that came out of that first book that insatiable wives, you know, change my life and the. The kind of fascinating thing is that, like, like you said, venus, I mean I wrote that book, published it in 2009, so 14 years ago, and it's still fucking relevant. It's kind of mind-blowing.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Yeah, it's, it's. It's the book on cuckolding. You've researched, you've done so much work and I can see how that would be fun work, by the way, but you're so thorough and I love the fact that it really started out with you Recognizing these assumptions that were being made and then challenging those assumptions, and I think that's amazing. There's probably a lot of other areas within sexuality that that we need to look at that in that way, but what you did, what you started out with and this is something I have not touched on on the show at all Some, there's some people out there who think that cuckolding is like a recent thing, a recent phenomenon, but it's not. It has been around. This cuckold word, this, this, this whole thing has been around for a very long time. So what did you learn about that when you, when you wrote this book?

Speaker 2: 17:38

Well, you know, I had the same assumption. I I thought this was, you know, a recent phenomenon and and in some ways, in some ways it is. It is recent in that, you know, never before has there really been, you know, public, open discussion around cuckolding. Historically, cuckolding was more focused on non consensual infidelity by the wife and, to a degree, the claim that Men, you know, consensually, voluntarily, wanting their wives to cuckold them is new. That that's sort of true, but also not. There was a word, wittall, witol, which in old English that was the name for the willing husband who was his wife was cuckolding them. So, you know, back in 1200, 1500, they already recognized that that was a thing and that the the thing for me, as I dove into this and just started digging and paying attention to it and following threads, was I just found example after example of Cuckolding, you know, back through history and people that you and I would would kind of know about but not pay attention to. So, like Messalina mess, you know, I wrote down some of the, some of the historical names. Messalina was the, the wife of a, of a Roman emperor, and she was a hot wife and she liked to go out at night and work in the brothels, and she worked under the name the wolf girl and one time she did a contest with another sex worker of the day about how many men they could take on during the night and she won with 25 guys, and you know. And then, like Mark Twain One of my mark, mark Twain, wasn't involved in cuckolding, but he had this one quote where he he used as an example, basically, how stupid men are?

Speaker 2: 20:01

He said men are so irrational that they Look at, you know, the sexual capacity of women. Who can, you know, take on man after man after man and still be unsatisfied, whereas a guy can barely satisfy one woman himself? And and and and Twain said men look at that dynamic and say, oh, clearly the way it was supposed to work is that it's supposed to be one woman for one man. And and Twain says this is the dumbest thing in the world.

Speaker 1: 20:37

This.

Speaker 2: 20:37

This makes no sense and when I ran across that I was like, oh my god, you're right, because you know, the research is that. You know multi-orgasmic women. You know Some of them are on record having as many as 60 orgasms in an hour, but the the record of male orgasms is More of round, I want to say 18 or 20 in a 24-hour period. So you know and and and I compare it to you know Female sexualities of Ferrari and guys are kind of driving a moped.

Speaker 1: 21:11

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Speaker 2: 22:17

Thank, me later. One of my favorite stories and interestingly it didn't make it into the book but was Lady Godiva. So everybody knows Godiva chocolate and Lady Godiva. We see her in paintings a lot of times where she's naked on a horse and her hair is covering her nudity. And the story is that back around 1000, lady Godiva was married to a nobleman and the nobleman was really exploiting the peasants of the area with very severe taxation and Godiva took pity on them and was trying to get him to do less taxation. And he finally got angry with her and said okay, I'll do it, but only if you ride through the town of Coventry naked. Well she did. She put out an order to everybody and said look to save you guys from taxes. I'm going to do this, but all of you have to go in your houses and not look. Well, there was one guy named Tom who did look, and that's the origin of the term peeping Tom, because Tom was the only guy who looked at her as she rode through town naked. Her husband died and she actually ended up owner of the land and in control for a while and she reduced taxes.

Speaker 2: 23:54

So here's the interesting thing is that it turns out that the story of her riding naked is fiction, that it was made up about 100 years later by historians who wanted to minimize her historical impact because they recognized, if people heard about this tax reformist, that they would want lesser taxes too. So what did this historian do? He slut shamed her, he turned her into this naked slut to take away her power. Oh, wow. And when I read that one I thought that was so cool, because it also is such an indicator of the way female sexuality gets demonized and used against women.

Speaker 2: 24:46

Victoria Woodhol, though, is an interesting, different example. Kind of Victoria Woodhol, in 1872, was the first woman in the United States to run for president, and she was a sex worker, and she was married and not faithful to her husband, and he went along with it, and she has this amazing quote about free love. She was one of the early proponents of free love in our country and argued for freedom in sexuality, and today, in Washington DC, there's an organization called the Victoria Woodhol Foundation that is a nonprofit that exists to defend sexual freedom rights. And on her behalf again, this insatiable wife who was out there changing the world, oh, my God, I love that.

Speaker 2: 25:46

There's a movie out just now about Napoleon. I forget who directed it, right, but it focuses a lot on the sexuality issues around Napoleon. And Napoleon was actually called Commander Cuckold by his troops because Napoleon's wife, josephine, was fucking around left and right and I mean Napoleon was Emperor of France and couldn't stop it. And his sister also was a naughty girl because Napoleon got her married, I think two or three times to men and the marriages kept blowing up because she would be off gallivanting around through bed after bed and one time she actually got prescribed bed rest because she had developed a quote brain fever from having sex with a guy with a really big dick and ended up in the doctor's office because of this guy's big dick and how much she liked it. And when she died, I think she died of tuberculosis maybe, consumption maybe, and when she died she didn't want her body displayed at her funeral. Instead, she had posed for this really beautiful, remarkably beautiful sculpture by an Italian sculptor named Canova, and she's nude in it, lying in bed. She used to love to welcome visitors as she laid nude in bed or topless in bed. She just loved showing off her body and at her funeral she arranged that her body wouldn't be shown but this nude sculpture of her would be displayed in honor of her exhibitionist kind of past and stories like that.

Speaker 2: 27:51

I just found it so fascinating to find this kind of secret history of insatiable wives and Ayn Rand I didn't include this one in the book but Ayn Rand, who wrote Fountainhead and is the kind of modern originator of libertarian politics, she was cuckolding her husband and he knew and he wasn't thrilled with it.

Speaker 2: 28:22

It certainly was not, apparently, something that he was enthusiastic about. But she negotiated it with her husband that she was off having sex with a young lover that she took and they just kind of had to deal with it. And it's fascinating to me how through history these wives were there. Now I will say that most of these wives that were exploring this they were nobility, they were intelligentsia, they were artists and writers and so those creative folks through history they've always kind of lived by their own rules and it's neat that women who were living by their own rules, this was one of the ways that they explored their lives. And it's also neat today that more and more women are exploring this without having to be nobility or intelligentsia or artists, that there are normal, everyday women now who are saying, hey, this is hot, I want to do this.

Speaker 1: 29:43

Right, I know I'm like if more women knew, only knew that this was an option, this was available, and books like yours are helpful in letting them know. Hey, this is actually a thing. It's been secret for so long or kept behind closed doors for so long, but people now are talking about it, thank goodness, because there are so many benefits to women, and I love that you talked about the sexual capacity of women. There's something written in your book and when I came across this sentence I was just like whoa, mind blown. So in your book you said without the social risks, punishments and prohibitions towards female promiscuity, women could and would far outstrip men in their level of promiscuity and multi-partner sex. I was just like, wait, what I know that. I thought about that. If it was safer for women, if there weren't so many risks for women, then casual sex would be more of a thing for us. But when I read that I was like we have the capacity to actually outstrip men in that. I was just like, wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:08

It is a fair argument that people have made that a significant purpose of civilization and society has been to contain female sexuality and to restrain it. Chris Ryan, a good friend of mine, wrote Sex at Dawn and he argues, I think mostly accurately, that a lot of historical societies pre-civilization did not constrain female sexuality the way we do. He talks about this interesting concept called partable paternity that you see in some South American tribes where when a wife gets pregnant she then goes and has sex with several other men in the tribe. Those men now become secondary and tertiary fathers, almost godfathers to the child. If the main father dies, those other fathers take on some caregiving role and some resource providing to the child.

Speaker 2: 32:31

But again like that Mark Twain quote that somewhere people decided that, whoa, we got to contain these women and unfortunately you see it still today with a lot of evangelical, christian and Muslim traditions that focus on containing female sexuality, to prevent female freedom and to also be this kind of idea that girls can't wear spaghetti strap dresses because seeing their bare shoulders might trigger other boys to be overcome by lust. There has always been this idea that female sexuality is so strong that society can only survive if we contain it.

Speaker 1: 33:34

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Speaker 2: 34:29

But now I will say that one of the things that since I wrote the book and one of the things I've paid attention to is when cuckold couples are exposed, who suffers? And overwhelmingly it's the wife. You know, when we look at Jerry, falwell Jr is one of the rare exceptions that he suffered, but his wife, becky, is the one who was really called a slut and Falwell was made fun of, but she's the one who I think was just really attacked. There have been a number of couples that were doing only fans and online and making amateur porn and cuckolding was a big part of it. And then it gets exposed, you know, and the wife turns out to be a teacher or the wife, you know, turns out to be prominent in some way or whatever, and she gets destroyed.

Speaker 2: 35:48

There's one couple that I interviewed from my, I want to say, the South. The woman was known as a Jinxie Pie and she was a porn performer and was making cuckold porn with her husband and they got exposed and the family horrifically rejected them and he ended up dying by suicide and because apparently the Jinxie Pie, the wife, had had sex at some point with an underage guy, like 16 or 17 year old kid, she ended up as a registered sex offender. Oh wow, and so so the thing that I unfortunately do sometimes have to say is that, you know, it is still the case that women engaged in cuckolding, if it is exposed, are more likely to be the ones that suffer, and I wish that that wasn't the case, and anybody that wants to explore this. I encourage them to think about you know, think about how you're going to handle this, and think about what would happen, how your network would react.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Yes, yes, I had. It's interesting because I I have experienced this really high level of anxiety that guys have about being exposed, about this being, as you know, their friends, family, co workers, finding out that they're into this kind of fantasy, and they're absolutely terrified of that happening, and I completely understand. But maybe they don't even realize that it's probably the woman who's going to suffer the most out of the two of them. I mean, it wouldn't be a great situation, although I did actually go out and it's not an official study or anything like that but I did actually ask a bunch of people, okay, who had this happen? Who had this happen to them where somebody, let's say, a close friend or family member or somebody at work, found out that you're actually into this.

Speaker 1: 38:08

What happened? Was it the end of the world, like, like what happened? And I had to some people say you know, yes, you know, accidentally this person found out and it was awkward for a while and then it was whatever, and that was the most common thing that had happened, like it was awkward. I think I had one, maybe two people who said you know, I lost my friend, or I lost, I lost my family member, or you know I lost my job or whatever, but I mean it was very, very uncommon. But there is this like really high level of anxiety around you know, somebody finding out, which I'm I'm sure is common in the kink world, or anything that's kind of outside of the box of like a what we call a regular relationship.

Speaker 2: 38:58

The I. Here's. The challenge, though, is that if people get exposed for infidelity, they oftentimes experience almost no consequences. Everybody goes, eh, you know, everybody cheats, right. But if you get exposed for kinky sex, then or God help us, you know, consensual non monogamy then everybody rejects you. Now there was a, you know, a couple of years ago, there was a female Democrat politician, gosh was she from California, I think, and she had an open relationship with her husband, and some naked pictures of her with another person, I think male, got released by the husband as a part of their divorce and breakup, and she had to step down from Congress, lost her, lost her career. She was the first openly bisexual politician that had been elected in the United States, and so, again, you know, there are some. There are some pretty significant consequences, particularly for people that are living public lives, and especially, especially, if you are at all at risk of being called a hypocrite, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Jerry.

Speaker 2: 40:40

Falwells, yeah, the Jerry Falwells, the. You know the, the, the folks that are embracing, you know trad culture and traditional masculinity, but that's the funny thing is that the more, the more conservatives hold up. You know traditional masculinity as this hallmark of ideal, and they make fun of men who are not masculine enough. The more exciting they make being a cuckold to be, because the taboo paradoxically increases it.

Speaker 2: 41:20

And it's not by accident that you know people in Russia, people in Italy, people in South America are increasingly embracing cuckolding, because those are areas where you know you have to be a real man. And part of being a real man is your wife or your girl would never cheat on you. She, she's satisfied by only you. And and then there are guys that start fantasizing about wow, what if I didn't have to be in charge? What if? What if I just got to sit back and watch? What if I got to be weak and survive it? And so it's not by accident that cuckolding is more popular amongst conservative and Republicans. You know, justin Laymiller found that in his research on sexual fantasy.

Speaker 1: 42:16

Yes, and I was not at all surprised by that, because I do have matchmaking service for singles looking for a cuckolding relationship and I do have a good amount of guys who are, you know, on the right side of the, the conservative side of this political spectrum, who are into it and, interestingly enough, really into the interracial kind of cuckolding dynamic, but very few, if any, women on the right conservative side of the spectrum who are into cuckolding. So why do you?

Speaker 2: 42:50

think that is by the way.

Speaker 2: 42:55

I think it's feminism. I think it, you know. I think that you know women on the right are not as embracing of, you know, female sexual empowerment, the although you know, I mean, one of the fun things your listeners can do is, you know, google, gop Convention, cuckold porn and there are, there are amateur cuckold videos made during the GOP convention. Every year this happens and I am tickled by it to no end. Again, you know, this is something that happened after I wrote the book, but you know, trump himself was kind of surrounded by all of these cuckolds, the. You know Roger Stone, who's in the news today. You know Roger Stone famously was a swinger and called himself a trisexual and that he would try anything. And the one time he was posting ads looking for a muscular bodybuilder guy to have sex with his wife while Roger watched. Well, and now Roger's. You know all menly and proud boys and and he's interestingly, gotten all religious allegedly, which I am just thinking.

Speaker 2: 44:21

You know, buddy, I remember this Paul Manafort, who was the. I think he was the chair of Trump's first election campaign. He, and he's the only one who went to jail, I think, for campaign fraud. And his daughters, adult daughters cell phones got hacked, which is gross and should never. You know, people's privacy shouldn't get invaded. But in their text messages one of the things they were talking about was the fact that their mom would get gangbanged by black guys while Paul watched.

Speaker 2: 45:07

And it was only after, it was only after watching her get gangbanged, that Paul could then get it up, you know, with kind of a sperm competition kind of theory idea. And and the daughters were, you know they, they were kind of supportive of mom and they were kind of angry at dad and they, you know. But but this got exposed and I want to say there were two, you know, jerry Falwell Jr, obviously, you know. I mean that's at least three cuckolds all around Trump, as these people are, you know, endorsing traditional marriage and traditional masculinity and everything else. I I just think it is cuckolding. The thing, the thing I find fascinating about it is that it is this kind of secret underbelly of sexual psychology that is just so revealing.

Speaker 1: 46:10

Oh I love that.

Speaker 2: 46:12

Just all the secrets, yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:14

Yeah, it wasn't. There's something in the book about a French president, yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 46:20

Yeah, france won Mitterrand. Now, well, did I talk about that in that book? Or in myth, the sex addiction? Because Francois Mitterrand and maybe this maybe is a different story you were thinking of but Francois Mitterrand, he had a mistress and children by his mistress. When he died that the mistress and the other children showed up at the funeral publicly and the whole French nation just had to go. Eh, okay, it happens, it wasn't cuckolding, but it's such an interesting counterpoint to American fears about this stuff. Yeah, and the example I often make is that the United States obsesses about infidelity and we view infidelity as just this horrific moral failing, showing you're the worst person in the world and the French are just kind of like, eh, but interestingly, rates of infidelity are higher in the United States than they are in France, because the obsession about trying to stop and control and prevent infidelity might actually increase it.

Speaker 1: 47:45

Oh, really, oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, you talked about infidelity in the book. I think you said something about 25% of women will cheat in their lifetime and 40% of men will cheat in their marriage, or something like that, in an amnogamous relationship. I can't remember exactly, but I was just like, wow, that's a lot. But you were saying in the book there's probably much higher because people are just not open about that kind of thing, right, right.

Speaker 1: 48:15

And what was really mind-blowing, david, was you talked about how many men are unknowingly raising children that are not theirs. I was like what?

Speaker 2: 48:29

Yeah, yeah, well, you know. So first again I'll throw in a history thing. So Martin Luther, who created Lutheranism, the religion, and obviously Martin Luther King Jr, was named after Martin Luther. Martin Luther in the 1500s, you know, deeply religious man, and he was approached at one point and asked is it more sinful for a man who cannot get his wife pregnant to allow the wife to have sex with another man so that she can get pregnant and the husband can now have kids and raise kids and continue his family? Is it more sinful for him to allow the wife to cheat or for him to not have kids? And Luther actually said it was less sinful to allow the wife to have sex with another man so that the father could carry on his family.

Speaker 2: 49:42

And again, cuckolding. You know the term cuckold comes from the cuckoo bird. The cuckoo bird is a bird that flies around and lays its eggs in the nest of other birds and the cuckoo egg hatches before the other birds. The cuckoo chick grows faster, it consumes the resources of these other birds. It will even push the other chicks out of the nest and naturalists looked at that and said that's what can potentially happen if a husband's wife cheats on him that the husband could end up investing his resources to care for the children of other men. So they made it this horrific, terrifying thing, and Shakespeare made fun of it a lot. There's a lot of cuckold references in Shakespeare, but the thing is in modern society. First just think about step-parents. There are lots of fathers, step-fathers, raising the children of other men. It has become normalized and I think that to a degree, that's one reason why cuckolding is less terrifying or shameful or frightening for people. But and again, this is something that has really exploded even more since I wrote that book 23andme and Ancestrycom. You know the ability to get genetic testing at home has now led to all of these people finding out about cuckolding and parenting in history.

Speaker 2: 51:27

I've written about this publicly. So I will say my mom she was studying nursing and she was in college and they were doing blood typing and they learned about blood typing and heritability and my mom went to the teacher and said you know, okay, yeah, I know my mom's blood type because her mom, my grandmother, was a nurse. And she says I know my dad's blood type because my grandfather had been in the military and she had his dog tax. And she said but here's my blood type to the teacher. And how can this be? It doesn't make sense from what you're saying. And the teacher said I'm sorry, but your dad's not your dad.

Speaker 1: 52:18

Can you believe it's been four years since I first started this podcast and, looking back, I had no idea that this would be my full-time job. I love the work that I do and it's because of you, the listeners, and your support that I'm able to do this. So right now, if you join the helpful Cuck Tear, you get tons of benefits. My favorite ones are the private one-to-one chat every month. You also get access to my private Snapchat group, weekly live hangouts with me on Crowdcast I love those and you got juicy bonus episodes. There's key holding, there's video replays of the pillow talk events and there's also access to my private community on the Moan app. So join right now. You can use the promo code CUCKLOVE2024 for 15% off your helpful CUCK membership at venuscucklejustcom Wow.

Speaker 2: 53:18

And that's how my wife, that's how my mom found out that her mom had been unfaithful, and that is happening a lot Now, historically discovered through genetic testing, and it's uncertain how frequently it happens.

Speaker 1: 53:41

But yeah, there are a lot of people out there that maybe aren't who they think they are genetically right, it's so true and there's so many people that are finding that out through those easy $80 genetic tests that you can do. But it is such a wild cuckold fantasy. I have had so many guys who really fantasize about this idea of having to raise somebody else's kid and how humiliating that is, especially if it's a biracial child or something like that. This is such a fantasy that a lot of guys have within this whole cuckold thing.

Speaker 2: 54:24

Yeah, so I will confess that that's one of the things that I still struggle with and I'm a positive and affirmative person and clinician around these issues. I think it's fine for guys to fantasize about that. However, I worry about the mental health and emotional health of kids that could result from that because, basically, they're non-consensually being made part of this sex fantasy.

Speaker 1: 55:12

Yeah, I agree 100%. I have thought about it a lot over the years because I've had so many guys talk to me about that fantasy. I'm thinking, yes, it's really hot and everything like that and it's fun to talk about and fantasize about in bedroom talk and stuff like that. But oh my God, how would you even deal with that? This is a child. This child's going to grow up. How would you protect them from the trauma of knowing about that? That's right.

Speaker 1: 55:40

It's just so unfair for the child. I'm like, no, let's just not go there. That seems like a pretty selfish thing to do to bring a child into the world in that way. I've had a lot of people upset with me because I feel like that, but I'm just like no.

Speaker 2: 55:55

One of the things again, writing that book changed my life. I changed my career in so many ways. Since then I've become board certified as a sex therapist and I'm recognized at the highest level now as being able to train sex therapy. One of the things I've learned since is that we can allow people to be as kinky as they want to be, but we need to help them understand what healthy sexuality is.

Speaker 2: 56:32

Healthy sexuality used to be penis and vagina sex, not penis and anus or mouth Penis. That sex within marriage was healthy but sex outside marriage was not healthy. That heterosexual sex was healthy and homosex was unhealthy. We used to judge healthy sexuality by what it was. It was an act-based model of sexual health. In recent years, we I say we clinicians and sexuality researchers and therapists and writers and such we've started focusing more on it's not what you do, it's how you do it. We've moved to a values-based model of sexual health where if it is honest, if you are being, if it is consensual, if it is, if you're paying attention to safety, if there is mutuality, if there's no exploitation, then it's healthy, regardless of what it is.

Speaker 2: 57:37

So you know, I've seen there was a case in Taiwan, I think about two years ago, of these Asian men who met on a discussion group about cuckolding and they all wanted to be cuckolded by their wives, and these three guys I think three or four they conspired together and they drugged their wives and then the other men came over and had sex with the wife. Well, that's exploitive and that's not consensual and that's not honest and that's not mutual. It's not the cuckolding that's unhealthy, it's the sexual assault right, it's the lack of consent. And so you know, I see guys who want to trick their wives into cheating, into cuckolding them, and I say no, no, no, dude, the fantasy is okay, but it's not honest and it's not consensual. Now, it's unhealthy. Now, if you can find a way to engage in the behavior honestly and consensually, then it's healthy.

Speaker 1: 58:49

Yeah, yeah. I've had that happen so many times, too, where I've had guys that reach out to me and they're like, oh my God, I know my wife would really love this, if only she would just try it. I'm gonna arrange for this guy to show up at this time and hit on her and they're like, scheming up all of this scenario to trick their wife into this, and I'm like you need to stop. And there's guys out there online who are giving tips to each other to do this. I'm like you need to stop, just stop.

Speaker 2: 59:20

And just not okay. Just as a psychologist, let me say the more pressure you put on your wife to do this, the less she's gonna want to do it.

Speaker 1: 59:31

Yes, yes. As a woman, I will say yes, that's correct.

Speaker 2: 59:36

Yeah, I mean I tell so many of these guys look you gotta back off. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 59:45

If you have any chance of doing this. That's the thing they're going to destroy their chance of this maybe happening by pestering her like pecking being pecked by a bird to death. You're just like it's just awful over time.

Speaker 2: 1:00:02

Yeah, Anybody listening. Yeah, they're off yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:06

Yeah, anybody listening right now. Stop pestering your wife about this. Okay, she's got to buy into it if she's going to, I mean, and there's just situations where that's not going to happen and it's going to stay bedroom fantasy talk and that's as good as it's going to get for you.

Speaker 2: 1:00:23

And that's pretty good. If you can get that, that's pretty damn good. Yes, yeah, and that's fun, exactly, and that's so much more than a lot of other guys get.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

Yeah, absolutely. As a cuckoldress, as someone who's had experience in this kind of relationship, I will say that the fun teasing talk, that fun little game of conversation that you have about fantasies around this is 80% of the fun in this kind of relationship. The whole sleeping with other guys thing is yeah, it's fun and everything, but like it's not everything it is.

Speaker 1: 1:01:04

It's the fun. It's the fun you have at home when you're just talking about it and making a little comment and stuff like that. So if you can get her to play with that, play with that game with you, then that's great and you should be grateful for it, I think. Okay, so when we first talked about cuckolding a couple, I think it was a couple of years ago, and now that was the very first cuck week that there was. We were celebrating the release of Insatiable Wives on audiobook. So for those of you listening out there, it's available on audiobook, which I would highly recommend, because then you can just listen in as you're driving in the car or listening together as a couple.

Speaker 2: 1:01:43

It's read by Rose Caraway, the sexy librarian I think she is what she calls herself. She reads it amazingly well. She's now a good friend of mine, an amazing person. But the cool thing now is that couples who are wanting to explore cuckolding have started this thing of they go on a road trip and they listen to the book together as a way to kind of connect and talk and identify what aspects of this might they be willing to like or try. And the cool thing is they send me pictures of Insatiable Wives on their car stereo as they're listening to it. And I post the pictures because people love to send me pictures of my books in their life, which I just love, and so it's cool that again, it's still relevant and it's part of people's exploration and growth and connection and sexual adventures. I just feel genuinely honored.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

It's a big part of that adventure, that experience, that couples are going down that road to maybe try out, and it's a big part of that. For any couples who are listening right now and thinking about listening to the book together or reading the book, let me just tell you you're going to have your mind blown, because there were so many parts of this book where I was just like, wow, and I love the fact that you've sprinkled in these stories from real couples in that book. But one of the things that I realized a couple of years ago, right around the time of the very first kakui, was that I didn't know this, but cuckolds out there, or guys out there who have cuckolding fantasies, who really kind of like there's a lot like we talked about the struggle with accepting themselves. They are starved for messaging that tells them that they're good enough and that they're okay and that they are loved the way that they are and that it's fine to have these kind of fantasies and they are not less of a man. They are starved for that kind of messaging and that really broke my heart to realize that, and so that was.

Speaker 1: 1:03:59

You know, ever since then I've been trying to put that out there.

Speaker 1: 1:04:01

That messaging out there that you know cocks, our love, they do make the most amazing partners and they are incredible.

Speaker 1: 1:04:07

They, you know they allow women to really sexually flourish in their life, like this, is fucking amazing and it's a fun kind of relationship.

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

But so one of the things that I that really was profound for me when you came on the show the first time where you talked about what guys can do to really accept who they are and you said you said something about self acceptance and being compassionate towards yourself. And I had always thought of being compassionate as someone, as something that I do towards somebody else or something else, like being compassionate towards people or whatever, but never until that moment thought about being compassionate in words and in the way of accepting who you are. And you said something about how, if you try to think about this as part of who you are sexually, and how this might be of a benefit in your life instead of a negative, and I thought those were really really really important messages for for guys and I wanted to ask you, on that note do you have anything to add to that for for men who may be really struggling with this part of themselves?

Speaker 2: 1:05:28

Yeah, you know the again it's. You know it's interesting to me how, how, talking with you, venus, you know so many threads of my of the past 15 years, my career kind of come together Because one of the other things that I do a lot you know is is you know, I now write about people who identify themselves as being addicted to pornography and are really struggling with pornography. And what, what research suggests is that people who are more self-compassionate are less likely to identify themselves as addicted to sex or pornography because they're. When you hate yourself for having these sexual desires, it it takes away your control, it takes away your self-control, but when we, when we have self-compassion.

Speaker 2: 1:06:27

So you know, I live in New Mexico and, and you know, teenage girls in New Mexico wear lots and lots of makeup and wear tight clothes. And you know, I go to the mall. I hate going to the mall, but sometimes you got to go to the mall and you see somebody from a distance and you think, holy shit, she's hot. And then you get closer and it's like, oh fuck, she's 12, I'm going to hell, right. Well, I have compassion for myself and I can say, oh, you know, a, that's part of the culture and B, my eyes are shot and I couldn't tell who she was and and and that's human. So I think, oh, okay, need to look away and think, you know, be a little more careful next time checking somebody out.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

But I don't hate myself, but imagine those people that have, you know, obsessive-compulsive disorder or are afraid that they that thinking an underage girl might be attractive makes them a pedophile and an awful person and they hate themselves, they don't have self-compassion and they're going to ruminate over that and struggle with it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:42

So what I, what I tell folk about all these issues and about all these struggles and about that shame spiral, is let us examine your ideas of what a man is and what a sexual man is and where you got those ideas and are you sure those ideas and values are accurate? Is it possible that, for instance, you know society and churches told you that you would go blind from masturbating as a way to keep you from masturbating, even though they themselves were masturbating? Is that possible? Oh yeah, it turns out it is. So should you feel so guilty about masturbating? No, maybe not. Maybe that was a lie. And if we can start, if we can start undermining some of those rigid, self-critical, self-sabotaging beliefs, we can increase our self-compassion and we can start to explore our true sexual selves and that's an amazing thing.

Speaker 1: 1:09:07

Yeah, absolutely. Ah, yes, if only these guys could get there. And I've seen it. I've seen guys who have, you know, accepted that this is who, part of who they are, and they're happy as hell and they're just living their life, and this is fucking amazing. And then there's the guys who are really really do struggle. If only they could get there, if only they knew what it was like on the other side, just push through the, really lean into it and realize, oh fuck, there's a better place mentally to be on the other side of that, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:09:48

And it goes for so many things. Cuckolding is just one of them, but lots of. There's this research, you know, from Canada, quebec, christian Joyelle, and he found that roughly 50% of the general population, given anonymity, will admit to having some sexual fantasy that we used to perceive as disturbed, whether it's exhibitionism or voyeurism or BDSM or cuckolding, or so it turns out, half.

Speaker 2: 1:10:31

it turns out, frankly, that deviant sexual desires are the norm, not the abnormal and if we can just get that out there then, oh my God, we could stop the shame and the self-hatred.

Speaker 1: 1:10:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely Okay. Before we wrap this up, where can people learn more about you, learn about all of the other books that you've written and all of that good stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

Yeah, I've got a website. I don't know a lot with it DavidLayPhDcom. You can find me on Twitter, I guess. X, formerly known as Twitter, that's what we're supposed to say now, right At Dr David Lay last name is L-E-Y. Of course you can find my books on Amazon, including the audiobook. I'm not that difficult to reach and find and I respond to people sometimes with I have time, who drop me an email or a direct message or tag me on Twitter If you've got a fun picture with my books. People take my books to the beach and one wife posted a picture of her reproducing the cover of the book and another wife posted a picture of her cuckold husband reading the book to her while she lay in the bathtub. I got to say I love that shit. If you want my attention, that's a great way to get it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:13

Hashtag insatiable wives cover. I love it. Yes, okay, well, thank you so much for coming on the show again, dr Lay, it's been so great having you on and I'm so grateful that you've written this book, and I forgot to ask you one more question, okay, last question. Last question when do you see cuckolding in the next 10 years?

Speaker 2: 1:12:39

Oh, it's a good question. I didn't expect for it to be where it is now, as publicly acknowledged as it is. I didn't expect to see women step into the leadership role publicly about it the way that they have. What are we going to see next? I think that we probably will see continued decrease stigma and shame around it. I think that more and more people are just recognizing yeah, there's a lot of people out there that think it's hot, no big deal. I think we're going to see a lot more women coming out and saying hey, I think this is hot too, Hopefully experiencing less shame for that. That's my hope for the future. I want the women to stop having to suffer for this.

Speaker 1: 1:13:38

Yeah, I agree, David. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been such a great experience. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

Thank you, Venus. I have to say you're a good interviewer and watching your evolution over the past few years has been really, really cool. Thank you for what you're doing on behalf of those folks out there, because you're doing as much or more than any of us to reduce the shame and change how all this is. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:14:12

Thank you, I appreciate that. That's a wrap for today's show. Make sure you join Kee Barrett and I for the two-week challenge Chastity Challenge that is and find the Kuck Week events at VenusKuckledriscom While you're there. You can also book a private chat with me If you feel like it. You can support the show by becoming a Queens Quarters fan and get all the benefits. That's going to be it for today's show. Happy Kuck Week everybody.