The Venus Cuckoldress Podcast

A Woman's Guide To Hotwifing: With Dr. David Ley and Crystal Welch

• Venus / Dr David Ley / Crystal Welch • Season 6 • Episode 4

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Want a smarter, safer way to explore hot-wifing that actually centers the woman’s voice? Venus sits down with Dr. David Ley and Crystal Welch to talk about their new book, A Woman’s Guide to Hotwifing: From the Therapist's Office to Real Life, and map out how to move from fantasy to real life without losing agency, safety, or joy. If you’re ready to explore hotwifing with clarity and care, this is your roadmap. 

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Crystal Welch - https://www.venuscuckoldress.com/cw

Dr. David Ley - https://www.davidleyphd.com/books

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Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_04

This is the Venus Cuckolders Podcast, a place to learn all things cuckolding for the curious, for the passionate, and for the sexually empowered woman who wants it all.

SPEAKER_05

Let's go.

Announcements And Community Updates

Meet The Guests And Book Origins

Centering Women’s Agency

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Venus. Thanks for joining me today. And I have such a great episode for you today. I'm going to be talking about a woman's guide to hot wifing. It is the brand new book co-written by Dr. David Lay and Crystal Welch. And we're going to be talking about what that new guide is all about. And I'm so excited because I think it's going to be such a great resource for so many of you people out there who are listening to this show. So make sure that you check the show notes for the link to the new book, A Woman's Guide to Hot Wifing. Before we jump into that though, I do have a few announcements. On February 26th, I'm doing a live chat in the Queen's Quarters community at 1 p.m. Pacific time. That's 4 p.m. Eastern. And that one is to talk about a blog post that I did about has Finn Dom hijacked the cuck label? And what are the consequences of that? So we're going to talk about that because that was a very interesting post. Got a lot of reactions on my blog, on the Venus blog, on Venuscuckoldris.com. So we're going to chat about that. It's free to join live. Just go to Venuscuckoldris.com, click on the events page, and that's how you can find out how to RSVP for that live chat in the Queen's Quarters. Also, I mentioned it on the last episode, but I am writing now on Substack. And you can check the links in the show notes to have a look and see what I've got going on there. I've written a post called The Wounded Bull, and I've also written a post on how to talk to your wife about cuckolding. There will be lots more to come. So make sure that you check it out. That's on Substack. It's under Venus Podcast. And last but not least, did you know that you can book a private chat with me? I love doing these chats and they're all different. And sometimes it's just somebody wanting to share a story with me, ask questions, get advice. Sometimes it's a husband, sometimes it's a single guy. And sometimes I get a private chat booked with a wife who has some questions about this kind of relationship. And I love having those conversations. I love getting to meet people. So if you are interested in booking a private chat with me, you can certainly do that. You just go to VenusCucklegist.com and click on the link that says private chats with Venus. All right, that's it for announcements. Let's jump into today's show. Here we go. On today's show, I have some amazing guests. I have Crystal Welch, who is a medium.com author, as well as host of the incredible podcast called Beyond Monogamy. And I also have Dr. David Leigh, who is a clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and author based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He's the author of several books and research articles on sexuality, including his first book, one of my favorites, Insatiable Wives, Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them. It was the first book to examine the cuckolding and hot wife phenomenon. With Justin Lay Miller and Dan Savage, he published the first psychological study of the cuckold fantasy. Dr. Lay is a frequent guest in media around the world with appearances in the New York Times, CNN, and Time magazine, as well as Hustler and Playboy magazines. Today we're going to talk about this amazing new book, A Woman's Guide to Hot Wifing from the Therapist's Office to Real Life. And we have Dr. David Lay joining us and Crystal Welch and myself, Venus, and we're going to talk about this. I'm so excited to learn about this. I was just like jumping up and down when I found out about this project that you guys were doing together because two of my absolute favorite people and the need for this being like huge. So Dr. Lay, what was it that inspired you to come up with this idea to start this book?

SPEAKER_00

You know, since I wrote in Satishable Wives, um, I, you know, I've had a I've had a concern because the the lifestyle cuckolding, hot wifing is, you know, predominantly introduced by men. Um I'm seeing more women come into it spontaneously now, but predominantly driven by kind of male needs. And I have seen um couples uh where the wife uh and her autonomy, her agency kind of gets um overwhelmed by the husband's fantasy, by the husband's desires. And sometimes that's you know, just kind of how it works or how it starts, and then the wife gains agency as she goes. But I wanted um as I was seeing more young women coming into this lifestyle, I wanted them to have the opportunity to learn some of those lessons from others without having to experience some of the downsides. Um, you know, the where possible, I normally recommend to um couples and specifically to hot wives that are new hot wives, that they find a mentor, um somebody like the two of you. And this book uh idea was um an opportunity to offer some of that mentorship to to women um in in an accessible manner. Um I'd been I'd been thinking about it for a while. I'd been looking for a writing partner for a while. Um Crystal and I ended up chatting um about uh about something, I even forget what.

SPEAKER_02

Who knows what?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, and then and then I pitched her this idea afterwards and she fucking jumped on it. I mean, you know, I'm sure there's lots of dirty jokes we could make there about Crystal jumping on something very aggressively. Um but but I turned around like two weeks later and we had a draft book. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_04

Crystal's so like that. She's like me too.

SPEAKER_02

You come up with a project and you're just like, oh, I'm diving right in.

SPEAKER_03

I know, I'm in it. I'm on this. Yeah, I'm on this. No, it was such a good idea, and I think so timely because I do this a little bit of personal coaching on the side too. And you know, everything that you outlined as an issue is absolutely true to the men who want it and try to convince their wives and the women who are unsure, and you know, that's a lot of the the people that I talk to personally. That's those are the exact issues that they're talking about. So it's the newer people. My direct feedback so far has been from newer people in the lifestyle that I'm so thankful, so thankful for it. It just gives them a little road to run on, and uh, and so I'm grateful for the opportunity, thankful to you.

Culture, Research, And STI Realities

SPEAKER_00

That's really cool. Yeah, I you know, I um without giving any details, I'm involved in a legal case right now um that involves a a couple that had been hot wifing um for several years, and then the wife they they got divorced and or getting divorced, and now the wife is alleging that a lot of the activity had had been kind of nonconsensual, that she had been coerced into it. And there were issues of STI exposure and stuff like that in there. And and again, um I don't I haven't even mentioned this to Crystal. I mean, that this case is going on as I as we were writing this, and I was thinking, I keep thinking, you know, if if this couple and if this wife had had access to material like this, you know, um maybe she would have had the ability to push back and and and and identify what what she wanted as opposed to what her husband wanted.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, that's that's a sobering thought.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've all seen, unfortunately, the you know, the the these god-awful cases lately, including the one in Paris of the man, you know, bringing in women to to abuse his wife. And you know, it's a it's seeing things like that that make me want, make me think it's so important that we empower women. Um it's fine if those are the experiences you want, but they have to be the experiences you want, not the ones that your husband wants for you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, exactly. I've come across that way too many times over the last decade where guys are out of sheer desperation or just fear of dealing with it head on, trying to use trickery and coercion to get their wife to do this. So I noticed when I read, well, I when I jumped into this Hot Wife guide that you guys created when that you wrote, I noticed right from the get-go, the very first sentences was the who is this for? This is about, this is for women. This is for the ladies. So I am, I was just like, yes, I'm so happy to see this. Cause like I get stuff sent to me all the time from guys who are writing advice books or resources for for people who are interested in this lifestyle. I'm just like, wow, I feel like we're really missing a whole different lens here. Like we're just missing one big part of this. So I was so happy to see that. So this is a guide. This is a guide for women, or is this for couples, or is this for bulls? Like, who is this for?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's really intended for the wives. Crystal, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03

I think it's prime it's certainly directed to women and gaining their own footing in the lifestyle. But I think it's you'd be surprised at the number of bulls and husbands that have reached out to me saying, you know, this is a big deal, I you know, bulls that want to read it because I think they're also searching, which is leads me to believe that we need a bull guide too, because there's a lot of bad behavior out there. And I've got personal testimonies on that, but I think it's for everybody. I think it's it's a good lens to get just get a person, healthy perspective on you know, it might point out to some men that you're co that you're manipulating your wife. It might, you know, it might raise the awareness of some bulls that for a lot of different things. And so I I geared to women, really for everybody.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and I think that, you know, men who read it, I think should hopefully walk away with some greater empathy and understanding for what they are asking the wife to do, whether they're the husband or the bull, um, that you know, they as they are asking their wife to be part of this, or asking this wife to be part of this, that she's a whole-ass person. And that that has to be kept in mind. She's not just a set of genitalia for for folks to enjoy and and and observe and watch and everything else. She's a whole ass person, and that's gotta be primary.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Whole ass person.

SPEAKER_02

There's no way better way to say it.

Safer Exploration And First Steps

SPEAKER_03

I know we're gonna coin that phrase some kind of a way. Uh that's a good one, that's a good one. But it's it's amazing to me, you know, in the 10 years that I've been in this lifestyle, that that that is still prevalent. The uh the assumptions that are made, the arrogance, I should say, the arrogance, uh, the selfishness. I mean, I it's it's shocking to me. It shouldn't after this amount of time and the amount of people that I talk to, but it is, it's shocking, it's shocking to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And because, you know, the um research is pretty clear that cuckolding and you know, cuckled fantasies, hot wife fantasies tend to be more popular in um more conservative political um cultures. As a result, sometimes those communities and cultures are less empowering of women. They are oftentimes more sexually conservative, at least on the face of it, and they do less sex education, and including education on um STI, you know, testing and prevention. And so I was really thrilled when Crystal helped me put together a section on um, you know, uh recommendations for Hot Wives around testing practices, um as well as discussion around PrEP and doxypep. Um those are two things that I think not enough people know about. Um, PrEP or pre-exposure prophylaxis, um, you know, folks oftentimes know it as Truveda, um, in the gay community is a way to prevent acquiring HIV, even if you're exposed to it. And it is incredibly effective. And I'll tell you right now, I only know one hot wife that is taking it consistently, and um because she is having sex with men that you know are bisexual and that are around drug users, and so she's at high risk. Um and then doxypep is um doxycycline, and it is a high dose of doxycycline that, if taken within 24 to 48 hours after an unprotected sexual encounter, is about 70 to 75% effective at preventing acquisition of things like gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis. Doesn't protect from viruses, but does protect pretty effectively from um bacterial STIs. And for those folks that are, you know, interested in bareback kind of sex that you know have have cream pie fantasies that you know are just really, really what they want to experience. If they're you know interested in anonymous, you know, kind of glory hole sort of sex or swinger sex, these are ways to reduce the harm. These are ways to increase prevention. And I'll tell you, not enough people in the lifestyle know about this or are using them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's not really talked about a lot. I think it's just not it's not part of the sexy fantasy, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, to me, the sexy fantasy is getting to enjoy the fantasy afterward, the experience afterwards without having to go to the doctor or without dying from it.

SPEAKER_03

You know, that'd be a that could be a good benefit. Yeah. Uh yeah, it's really true. I Venus and I both know a number of people that go to these hotel takeover parties. And the last two or three I've had different people tell me that they came home with some kind of infection. And uh it's scary because that's you know, that's what they go there to do that weekend, and uh it's that's another thing that's kind of shocking that there aren't there isn't more discussion, you know. Again, but I think you you have to I would say that it's the woman's responsibility to protect herself. Don't expect that the men that you hook up with are gonna take care of that. Don't expect necessarily your husband to be proactive about that. You protect yourself at the end of the day, you gotta protect yourself.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

Know Your Why And Communicate

SPEAKER_00

Now let's talk about um uh something a little sexier and funner. Um what when somebody is wanting to explore this fantasy, we make some recommendations in the book, but I'm interested in in Venus's thoughts. What do you recommend people do to dip their toe in, you know, to to try this out before you know dumping it, jumping in the deep end and maybe drowning.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Don't don't watch cuck porn. That's that's my big thing.

SPEAKER_00

That's a great point, yes.

SPEAKER_04

Don't watch cuck porn. I know that the the like there are there's a lot of guys that really do enjoy the cuck porn, and maybe there's some ladies too, but like I've yet to find any that's I was like, oh, that's hot. Um, so chances are that she's probably not gonna dig it the way that he does. But anyway, um, okay, there's so much, but the the greatest part, I think, is just the fucking flirting with other people. Like, I don't, I don't know why this is not more of a thing. This is one of my all-time favorite ways to tease a cuck is to flirt with other guys. And it's like so harmless. And it's such a great way to actually like improve or increase your confidence in flirting because maybe you're, you know, you've been maybe you've been married to the same dude for 20 years. Like, you don't know what it's like to flip flirt with, you don't remember. It's fucking since high school, you like it's all you know, intimidating. But this gives you the opportunity to learn how to flirt and have and like it's not difficult. Guys are simple creatures, like they're just there's it's not difficult. We are overanalyzing this. Like, you gotta be like, I gotta have just the lash blink in just this little like way. No, they don't give a fuck. Like, you just gotta be like, hey, hey, babe, you're fucking cute. Like, but it's easy, it's simple, it's pretty harmless too, as long as like you're in a space that's safe. Um, then at the I would absolutely recommend that. I love, love, love, love the idea of flirting with other guys when you're in a public space and your husband, your partner is somewhere nearby and can see. Like, this is the most fun little game ever. You can have so much fun with this. I've done it, it's awesome. Like, highly recommend 10 out of 10.

SPEAKER_00

What do you what do you recommend, Crystal?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I like that one. Flirting is a kind of a dead art. I wish more people were more proactive about flirting. That's really because it's like any other thing. If you don't do it often you get out of practice, but I think um, you know, I typically recommend it's it's not as fun as flirting, but sometimes I've suggested to people that they they watch something it might be torn or something related, and then just have open discussion, like don't get lost in the film. But talk about well, is that something that you'd like to try? Is have you ever thought about doing that as a way, just as a lever to open the conversation and and sort of jump inside your partner's mind and see what they what they what are they do you talk about, what do they fantasize about? Sometimes when they're watching other people do it, it might be easier to reveal that they have that fantasy too. So that's that's uh something that I've used effectively with people that have tried and and they said that that was really it worked well.

SPEAKER_00

So I will say my favorite strategy sounds um uh uh uh very selfish on my part, but I recommend that couples get books, my book, Insatiable Wives, now this book, Hot Wives, uh Woman's Guide to Hot Wifing, and read it to each other. Um one uh uh I have one of my guilty pleasures. I have a file of pictures that people have sent me of them reading Insatiable Wives all over the world. One of my favorites is a husband reading it to his nude wife in the bathtub. And it's an opportunity, just like both of you said, to start connecting on what resonates, what works, and what doesn't. What feels good, what doesn't. What, ooh, ooh, that's uh I just got shivers when you when you said that. Ooh, that sounds hot. I could do that. That is the way that couples connect um on on this and start exploring, figuring out what they want to do and how they want to do it.

Jealousy, Love, And Evolving Dynamics

SPEAKER_04

Yes, and I wish there were more resources, which is why I'm so excited about this guide. Because your book, Dr. Lay, has been like the only thing out there, really, that's been a like a really great resource to point people to for specifically for hot wifing and cuckolding. So I'm so excited for this. One of the things that I really enjoyed about this guide that you wrote was the very first thing that you put in there was to understand why you want this. There was, and I was like not expecting that because I was like thought you would jump into right away, like the oh, this is you know, first steps. What you need to do is a technique, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, but you're like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to actually look inward, understand you first. And that is the first time I've actually seen that advice. Oh, cool. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, I and I think so much of that came from Crystal in terms of you know elevating the focus on the female agency. That, you know, again, if you're doing this to satisfy your husband, you know, that's one thing, but that's Not gonna be satisfying or healthy or positive in the end. You you gotta do this for you. Is that fair? Is that is that how you how you meant it, Crystal?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, and that question again, I think is good for both the husband and the wife. Like, why does he want it? And what does she actually want? And do those two things coincide with one another? Uh so I think Yeah, because maybe they don't. Yeah, and but you know, you won't know until you actually bring it up and talk about that. Like, yeah, what is your motivation to get me to do this?

SPEAKER_01

And you know, sh then she has a chance to explore her own imagination and find out what what is sexy about it or what is offensive about it or what however she feels.

SPEAKER_03

But one way or the other, I don't think you can short circuit the communication. You can't short circuit communicating with your partner and getting down into some of those deeper levels because this isn't just it can be very, very good way to promote intimacy in a relationship. It has been for us. It can also blow your marriage up if you don't do it right. So you've got to at least practice on talking about some of these, but that's a core issue. Why do you want this? And why do you want me to do this? And what do I want? What do I actually want?

SPEAKER_04

And one of the other things that I saw was that there's worksheets, practical worksheets in this. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00

Isn't that wonderful? Yeah, those crystal put those together and and it's really, it's really so cool. Um, to to to figure out again what you want and what works for you, and what is your what does your husband want? And do does what he want work for you?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

This years ago, I came across a couple who um, before they jumped into this, that was what they did. They sat down and they wrote out questions for each other. Uh all the what if questions. What if this and that and happened, what would you do? And so they wrote, they wrote it out and then they they each answered it separately, and then they came together and they went over their answers. And I was like, this is brilliant. I'm like, this is so smart to just do it proactively before they jumped in.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, before you run into landmines all over, all over, before somebody falls in love, before somebody gets jealous. Let's talk about what happens if those things happen. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly because it's so fun and it's so easy to get wrapped up in the excitement and the thrill of jumping headfirst into this kind of relationship together. It's really easy to just dive right in. And I know from personal experience. Um, but I wish I would have actually held back a little bit and taken the time to really explore those questions, those what if questions that like, what would you do if this, that, and everything else happened? Um, because it would have probably would have helped a lot. Because yeah, it was it was great, my my jumping head first into cuckolding, but it was also a fucking disaster in the end.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I I I think we've probably all seen some of those, you know, shit shows. Um some of those just disasters. And and I always want to smack people upside the head. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_04

But it was so fun.

SPEAKER_03

It sounded like such a hot idea. It was such a hot idea.

SPEAKER_04

It was. It was so hot, and I loved it and everything, and then it just crashed and burned. And you're like, well, how where did that go off the rails? It went off the rails because we did not plan this out. We didn't think this through.

Safety Checklists And Red Flags

SPEAKER_03

We didn't give a yeah, I can give a good example to this. So when we first started, we just assumed that you know we wouldn't get have any other actual involvements. But you know, human beings don't always act that way. And we met a guy that just, you know, everything was right. He was just we just all three of us clicked. They became very good friends, and uh, and of course, the sex was super, super hot. And I fell in love, and so did the bull. And we didn't count on that. That was, you know, we did not see that train coming, and we didn't plan for that. And those things you cannot plan for, but they can happen. They can happen. And then so what do you do then? You know, if you haven't talked about it before, you have to you better do it then because that's where it it's either gonna bring you closer to how you resolve that, or it's gonna blow you apart. So it's I think it's wiser to talk about that possibility, even though you think it might never happen. You know, humans are complicated. We we can't predict how we're going to get along with any one person. And feelings get involved.

SPEAKER_00

And I was really glad that we were that we included a section on that about you know what to do when when when you know feelings develop, when when when things maybe change. One of the things as I've been doing this work now, I've seen a number of couples where cucking cuckolding or hot wifing is their entree into consensual non-monogamy. Um, and then the wife, you know, starts into this because of the husband's interest, but then she starts figuring out, well, you know, maybe I want other stuff. Maybe I want um something more like polyamory, maybe I want to develop, you know, love and real intimacy. Maybe, you know, the husband is is submissive in the cuckolding, and the wife is, you know, she's okay topping him or dominating him, but she wants to be submissive and she wants to experience being taken. And so um I've seen, and and and and this will sound a little sexist, but um, but I've seen women's desires in hot wifing and cuckolding evolve more than men. I see men get interested in hot wifing and cuckolding, and that becomes that that really stays their interest. It's pretty oftentimes kind of fixed. But I see women as they explore this, um, their interest and desires start to evolve. And if they haven't talked about uh what do we do if things change? How do we negotiate this? How do we how do we stay connected? Then again, that can be a real challenge.

SPEAKER_04

Scary stuff. Honestly, I've heard too many stories too. And it's interesting that you said that you've noticed that it's the women who evolve, uh, their interests evolve more than men. And I I wonder why that is their. I love, love, love the science behind uh the research behind anything related to this because it just like is so fascinating to me. I feel like there's definitely a real, some sort of a hook or pull that cuckolding has that's far stronger for for men than it is for ladies. I know that when I pulled the ladies in my um matchmaking service and I surveyed them and I asked them, like, why is it that what is it that truly draws you into this kind of relationship? It wasn't anything kinky and it certainly wasn't anything wild fantasy related. It was simply the one-sided open relationship part that was the biggest draw to them to have this, you know, loyal partner who did not have other sexual activity with other people. Um, while she was able to do that. And so that is the as the main draw. And I so I can see why that is pretty open, open door to different opportunities. I can see why that might there might be the the draw to like expand that to different kinds of dynamics within that.

SPEAKER_03

Um that's the cake and eat it too syndrome. That you know, when a woman hits that, she's like, why haven't I been doing this for the last 20 years? But I'll tell you what I what my draw is, and you know, I've thought a lot about this, but that thing that is so compelling and so addictive is the experience of desire. I it's like a catnip um to be desired. I mean, you know, so your spouse loves you and you accept that. But this desire thing, this is that new relationship energy that comes along with other partners, you know, where that experience of desire is so heady and so addictive to really just you know get lost in the experience of desire. I mean, I'm clear that that's what my motive is, and so if I'm not really, really, you know, connected with someone or driving with them, I don't bother. I've I've become too discriminating these days because I it doesn't happen very often. But that's what I want. That's what I'm going for. I want the experience of desire, and I want it loud and uh and very apparent.

SPEAKER_00

I think so many women have such a pervasive history of being, you know, slut-shamed, being you know, told to deny their sexuality, that their sexuality is dangerous, um, you know, everything else that the the women who I see evolve um through hot wifing and cuckolding are oftentimes women who this is one of their first opportunities to really embrace their unrestrained sexuality and um and be celebrated for it. And that that is a very affirming, life-changing experience that, you know, frankly, I think all women should have, right? But um, but that I think also then can lead to them now um embracing that agency and being like, whoa, you know, so I'm so I'm not an awful slut for wanting this. What about these other things that I've wanted?

Vetting, Video Calls, And Exit Plans

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm. And that opens the door. I mean, our our progression has been we started with just sort of the traditional have a lover once in a while and that's cool, not gonna get involved. Then we got really involved, and that thing couldn't last for its own reasons, but but then we just morphed kind of naturally into much more of a poly dynamic. I mean, he still doesn't have relationships with anyone, but he's completely cool. We found that this other love experience that we had added more love to our relationship. I appreciated him so much for just letting me have it. And he loved the fact that I was so happy, and so we've we've embraced that whole poly side now. Uh and I don't know that there's any going back for us. I mean, I've never been a numbers gal, uh, but if I don't have that deep connection with someone, I don't want to play with them at all. And so it's evolved our relationship. I love him more because he, I mean, this is conversion in action. I love him more because of that, that he lets me just ex, you know, experience whatever I can experience. And uh and he gets he does get joy from that.

SPEAKER_04

Let's face it though, that's a very terrifying thought for a lot of cucks out there where they think about their partner falling in love with somebody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, and you and you can't pre-judge how you're gonna feel or your partner's gonna feel. You can't judge, you can't judge any of that. You just either are open to that experience or you're not. But I'm saying for uh in our case, it it deepened our level of intimacy by a factor of about a hundred.

SPEAKER_04

Um, I wanted to ask you about the safety checklist. So we talked a little bit about STI uh prevention, but um, is there what else is included with these safety checklists? And by the way, I'm so happy to see that because I was just like, I've been I've been talking about safety for women in this lifestyle for at least a year and a half now, and nobody wants to fucking hear it's all crickets when I talk about it, but I don't give a fuck. I'm still gonna talk about it. Um, because it's important, it's very important. It's so important for us as women, especially that I think it gets often overlooked in the whole fucking cuckold fantasy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So what is that? What is that all about, these safety checklists?

SPEAKER_00

I'll say two things and then and then and then you know, really want to hear uh uh more from Crystal on what we put in there. But you know, one is trust your gut. Um again, part of empowering the wife is that if she feels off with somebody, if they don't feel like they respect her boundaries, if they feel like they are jumping too quickly, sending naked pictures before being asked, um, getting aggressive, um, that the wife needs to be empowered to say, whoa, you know, timeout. We're yeah, we're out, we're done. You know? That that that's that level of safety is critical. And then um you have secondly, you know, the first time you meet, don't fuck. The first time you meet, you've got to be meeting to see if this is a person that you can trust and feel safe enough to be sexual with. That, you know, certainly there are some environments, swing clubs and and hotel takeovers where this may be different. But again, as you are just baby stepping into this lifestyle, you've got to recognize that there are people out there that might not be a good match and might not be safe with this. And you have to be responsible to um to listen to those intuitions and trust them. They're there. There's a wonderful book I recommend called Um The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. And um de Becker are, you know, argues that we have that intuitive fear of other people on purpose because there's something about them that is triggering a feeling of unsafety, and that we ignore that at our peril. Hot wives need to listen to that. You need to you need to recognize it's your job to keep yourself safe. Now, certainly it's your husband's job too, but you have to voice those concerns.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And for me, I I'm a huge believer in my own intuition. Uh I trust it implicitly and I listen. And so my best advice for people, I mean, it's so easy in this day and age too. I notice how somebody contacts me online. Uh like I got contacted this week by somebody and he said he goes, I'm moving to uh to my city soon. Uh are you available? And I go, Well, tell me a little bit about you. And he goes, Well, I I might be willing to use you. Uh good luck with that approach.

SPEAKER_05

Ain't gonna be me.

SPEAKER_00

If that's your thing, okay. If you have put that out there, but if somebody goes there without without that being your thing or having checked it out, come on.

SPEAKER_03

Are you kidding me? I mean, that that could not be the further opposite of what I seek. And so so here's here's how I deal with it. I pay attention to how they approach me. What language do they use? Are they respectful? Uh, if you if you set a time to have a phone call or a a video date, do they show up? Uh, do they show up reasonably on time? I mean, I'm a big believer. It's so easy these days to just set up a video call and you can see each other, you can have eye contact, you can watch body language, you you know, you'll know if you're attracted to that person, if you have a, you know, a reasonably long video call. Are they easy to talk to? Are they is the is the is the conversation easy? Does is there free flow of it? Are they curious? I look for that too. Um men that think they just have everything and you're just the beneficiary of the all of their gifts aren't interesting to me. So are they curious about me? Are they curious? So those are the things you can you can quickly determine that if you do video calls. I think that's the the easiest, quickest way to figure out if you have chemistry with someone, if you they you can talk to them easily, if you feel comfortable talking to them, if the conversation isn't forced, if it isn't, you know, not awkward silences, and they don't say stuff something you know completely stupid, like, yeah, I'd be happy to use you, you know. A little conversation on video can tell you a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Do they look like a picture or is it a big thing? Right. Do they look like their picture?

Catfishing Lessons And Trusting Your Gut

SPEAKER_03

Right, you know, find out now. I mean, it you can you can go on Google Meet for Nothing and have a video call. I mean, I don't if they won't do a video call with me in the first one or two contacts, I don't I'll block them, I don't have any more to do with them because I don't want to waste my time. I don't want to waste theirs if if I'm not what they're looking for, too. So it's a very, very easy way to filter people and feel pretty good about it.

SPEAKER_00

And just like BDSM, you know, kind of hookups, you know, we encourage wives to have an exit plan. Um, you know, Crystal has some great language about you know having code words um that you could use in a in a in a in a conversation or a phone call with your husband or with a friend about why you need to exit. You know, hey, how's um is the dog okay? I was worried about it. Means, you know, get me the fuck out of here. Um and those are those are smart things to do that make you feel safer. And if you feel safer, it's sexier.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I wish I had this guide 10 years ago. You guys, I got catfished for three months in the beginning. I would I really wish I would have known to just like reverse Google search an image in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my God. Tell tell us about that, Venus. I mean, that is one of the things we talk about. That, you know, that there are there are a lot of folks out there that are flakes, that, you know, it finding a bull is much, much harder than you think. I think women and wives think, oh, you know, I'm gonna, you know, as soon as I put an ad out there, I'm gonna have a line of guys. And you might have a line of guys, but they might not be the guys you want to fuck. Um, but Venus, you got catfished, my God.

SPEAKER_04

It was so embarrassing, you guys. It was like too good to be true. But at the time, I didn't know. I was so naive. Like I didn't fucking know. I was coming out of like a 13-year relationship, so I didn't, I didn't know. Okay. And yeah, I got hardcore catfished for three fucking months. This guy kept on making excuses why he couldn't meet up. And eventually I caught on when he was telling me this very crazy story about something that happened to him. And I was like, this doesn't sound real, actually. This sounds kind of made up. So then I Googled his phone number, and it was actually some really old white dude, and it was his church page that came up online, and I was like, what? What the fuck? I was so embarrassed, but I can laugh about it now. But I was embarrassed. I was like, oh my God, I talked to this guy for three fucking months. Like this is anyway. But the other thing is, is I yeah, wish I had this 10 years ago because I had to learn how to trust my gut over. I had a couple of very scary, very scary, scary instances where I met up with somebody who I didn't know. And the first time he like the first guy like flipped out on me. And I was in Dallas of all places. I was alone and I had luckily had friends that lived in that city who I called right away and they came and got me. But like it was really scary. But I had that gut feeling something was not right before I went down there, but I didn't want to be the asshole to cancel at the last minute. I it was one of those polite things where I didn't want to do that, but my gut was saying don't do this. And then stupid me years later, uh, had a bad feeling about meeting up with a new guy. And it was the scariest thing I've ever gone through. He actually hid my phone, he wouldn't let me leave. I had to finally found my phone, called the police, ran for my fucking life. It was the scariest fucking thing I've ever been through. And after that, I after that, I'm like, okay, I learned I learned my lesson now. I will let trust my gut every fucking time. And so now when I meet somebody and they give me the slightest off-putting feeling, I immediately listen to that. I'm like, there's no ignoring that shit ever again because that that shit was scary.

Harm Reduction And Enjoying The Good

SPEAKER_00

And you know, we we included a section talking about, you know, date rape drugs and you know the the the need to uh you know the need to watch your drink. I mean, it feels like we shouldn't have to say that. We shouldn't have to live in a world where that's a that's an issue, but it is. And sadly, because women exploring cuckolding and hot wifing, um, th there is some potential embarrassment and exposure and shame around this. I think that there could there there likely are men out there that would predate upon them because the wives are less likely to potentially file charges. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my god. So So again, you know, and we're talking some about the negatives here. Um, there's so many positives, um, but being aware of the negatives, preparing to deal with them, helps you not have awful experiences so that you can enjoy this without the regrets.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Uh this is all about prevention. And so if you have the tools to be able to prevent this from happening, at least you take the precautions as much as you possibly can. You're you're steps ahead of where I was 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00

Where all of us are. I mean, I, you know, when I wrote when I wrote Insatiable Wives in 2009, nobody was talking about this stuff publicly. It had been around a long time, but but nobody was really talking about it openly, like, like, like Venus and Crystal are. Um, and that to me gives me so much hope for those folks out there that want to explore this, that they're not going to have a train wreck because they've got exposure to this kind of information. So the work you guys are doing is just it's just incredible. Um educating people, changing lives, increasing orgasms, um in, you know, and and and and just giving people beautiful experiences that they never thought they were allowed to have.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Well, I hope I hope that's what we're doing. I, you know, that's certainly I know that's both of our hopes. Um, but I think the world is so dark today that this is a way to have bring such joy and such pleasure and such intimacy into your life if if you do it the right way and um follow your intuition and keep a lot of good common sense rules, it can be very, very joy-producing for you and your partner.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, one of the things that um that I remember having you on the show the first time, Dr. Lay, where you're talking about um how it's is for some guys the shame spiral, and you're talking about how so like it's just if you think about your wife differently, if you if you can think if you can change the way you think about this and realize that maybe that this this this is a very this could be a very positive thing that if if you just had fucking go to therapy, like just go to therapy. But that was one of the things that I took away. I was like, yes. And the one of the things I've noticed a lot over the years is that like for for guy for so many men out there, they really want this so badly, but they just don't. I don't know if they don't have the skills to bring this up or they just don't have the confidence, the bravery, the courage to bring this up to their wife. So when I saw that you guys have conversation starters in this book, I was like, oh my God, yes, because that's literally what these guys need. They just need that little, like, okay, this is what you need to say to get this conversation started. Right. And then and and go to therapy.

Therapy, Sex-Positive Resources, And Stories

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Buy this book and go to therapy. Exactly. Give it to your wife. Now, if you get when you go to therapy, my caveat is you always need to go to therapy with a therapist who is sex positive, because unfortunately, there are lots of therapists out there that you know are awfully conservative around their sexual values, um, shaming towards uh non-monogamy, shaming towards kink. Um, there are a lot of therapists that are concerned that hot wifing and cuckolding is exploitive of the wife. And it might be. Now, if done right, it's not, but you need a therapist that can navigate that. So um ASEC, the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists, um Sexual Health Alliance, um uh there and um uh kink aware professionals through the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom are three places where you can find therapists that are not going to be shaming of your sexuality and your needs. Um that's important.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think you provide them as resources in this guide, right?

SPEAKER_00

We do, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, those are listed in the book, so you don't have to try and remember that. But yeah, that's that's great advice.

SPEAKER_04

And I love the fact that you guys provided all sorts of real life stories. And uh that was the theme in your insatiable wives book, which I loved so much. Um, I think uh so many people love that. I mean, I love the beginning part where you talked about the history of female sexuality, and I was just like, whoa, mind blown. But all of these um stories from real people, and I think there's so much to be learned from that because this kind of relationship looks so different uh for each couple out there, for each person out there. So I love that. How did you come up with all of these stories?

SPEAKER_00

A lot of them were crystal. Um, and the experience she's had coaching, some of them were, you know, uh experiences I've had uh doing therapy and and consulting with people and cases that I've worked with. Crystal?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's just it's a lot of that came out of people, real life people that I've talked to that call me for uh a little coaching session. They're dealing with this issue or that issue, and they just need a little help navigating a conversation or something. And I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00

I remember picking up this book in the 90s that purported to be, you know, sexual lifestyle kind of stories or anecdotes, and it wasn't. It was just it was just porn, which is fine. But I was, you know, I'm I'm a therapist. I want to understand people. I want to, and and what I have found doing this for a while is that the more we can help other people experience stories, experience narratives, connect with other people that are living these lifestyles, the the less alien it feels, the more human it feels, the more humanizing it is. And so again, as as Crystal and I were working on this, and and and I I think even my first email to her um on on the first draft was I love these stories. They are so good at showing different ways and giving permission to do this in whatever way works for you. I think everybody reading it can find something that goes, oh wow, yeah, oh, that's me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, I think what people look for is not something that's performative. They want something that's lived in real life. They want to know, you know, they don't want a porn answer to a human question. They want a human answer. Like, really, how do I do this in my relationship? Not hypothetically. And I think that's that's what we do, that we made an effort to that so that we could find the real life experiences that speak to what what a lot of people's experience actually is.

SPEAKER_04

Um well before we wrap this up, uh what are your guys' big hopes uh that people take away from this this hot wife guide? Uh what are you hoping that people are are are gonna really get from it?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I hope that the people who really need it find it. I hope that especially couples that are newer to the lifestyle can really do some of the exercises and really open those conversations. And ultimately, I hope they find a lot more intimacy and a lot more joy in their relationship by supporting the woman and excavating what she wants and helping her live that out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm I'm hoping more couples send me um sexy pictures of them having wonderful times and enjoying their lives after reading this book.

SPEAKER_04

We need a contest. There should be a contest. We should get to vote on the best picture. I mean, this is a marketing camp campaign, right? 100%.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the it's a short book. I mean, I I don't want people, you know, thinking they're getting, you know, a couple hundred page tome. Um, you know, as we wrote this, it's down and dirty, it's pragmatic. It it you know, and it it's not it's not a whole lot of fluff. Um, it's 55 pages, but it's 55 pages, chock full, packed full of incredibly important advice and suggestions and questions for people to explore. Um I hope that it helps them avoid train wrecks.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah, all the landmines along the way that we know are there. Yeah, and increase pleasure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um if you do this book, if you read this book, it you know, it's gonna help you have healthy sex, it's gonna help you focus on consent and safety and mutual pleasure in your relationship. It's gonna help you avoid being exploited, and it's gonna make sure you and your partner are on the same page.

Hopes For The Guide And Who It Helps

SPEAKER_03

Love it. I love it so much. And I think also there's there's value in the book for bulls and husbands. I think it can elevate your understanding and elevat and hopefully increase your empathy for the position that women are in as they're navigating this relationship. And so I I'd say it's for everybody.

SPEAKER_04

I love that so much. Okay, so where can people find this book? Is it out now or can they get it?

SPEAKER_03

It is, it is, it's on Amazon, and the title is A Woman's Guide to Hot Wifing. We'll put it in the show notes so that you I'll put a link in the show notes. A woman's guide to hot wiping from the therapist's office to real life. Um, and it is on Amazon as we speak, so you can go there. But we'll put the link in the show notes so that you can find it easily. And I so want to acknowledge you, Dr. Lay, for collaborating with me. It was a great honor for me, and uh it was a lot of fun. And at the end of the day, I hope it helps a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00

Me too. It was a joy working with you, Crystal. Um uh yeah, you you blew me away with with um with your responsiveness and your engagement, and and and I think we've got something really cool.

SPEAKER_03

I hope I I just hope that the right people find it so that that it helps a lot of people. And so now I'm gonna keep pressuring you to do a bowl book.

SPEAKER_02

So it's expect that coming. The idea has been born, it's now out in public, and you know, here we go. I don't know. Uh do you realize what you've started, Dr. Lay?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we're there's no holding her back. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We're creating the dummies guide to fun sex. Okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Exactly. It's a series.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, series.

SPEAKER_04

That's gonna be it for today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Make sure you go to VenusCuckledris.com. That's where you can book a private chat with me. And you can also join the Queen's Quarters community and get all the amazing benefits like the private podcast and the helpful cup tier where you can get key holding, the private Snapchat group, monthly private chats with me, and weekly live hangouts and invites to special live events. Oh, and you can also submit a question or confession for the show. Just go to VenusCuckledjust.com and click on the link that says the podcast. Make sure you follow me on Blue Sky Social. Yes, I said Blue Sky Social Fuck Twitter. My handle there is at cuckled just v. All right, that's it for today's show. You guys, we'll see you next time.