The Most Difficult Episode I've Ever Done

This episode is an essential listen for all cucks, bulls, ladies, and couples in the hotwifing or cuckolding lifestyle.

Transcript

Hard Warning Up Front

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Venus Cuckolders Podcast, a place to learn all things cuckolding for the curious, for the passionate, and for the sexually empowered woman who wants it all.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Venus. Thanks for joining me today. I have been doing this show for six years now, and I have had a ton of fun talking about all of the hot, sexy, thrilling, super amazing parts of this lifestyle. It's been so fun to talk about and explore with you all. I've also had some difficult conversations along the way, some really important topics that are maybe not so sexy to talk about, but definitely important. But nothing comes close. Nothing comes close to how difficult this episode is today with my conversation with my friend Angie. This is definitely one of the most important episodes, if not the most important episode that I have ever done. And it's a story of the worst possible thing, in my opinion, that can happen in this lifestyle. Okay. This is so shocking, absolutely horrific, and completely life-altering. There's some things I want to say before you start listening to this episode. What I really want all of you to get from this episode, whether you are a single, you are a couple, whether you are a bull, whether you just learning about the cuckolding lifestyle or curious about it. This episode is for everyone. This is what I want you to come away with, take away from this episode. Wounded bulls are present in this lifestyle. Okay, they are dangerous, they are malicious, and they are very manipulative. They are a threat to everyone in this lifestyle, but especially to women. I know some of you listening to this intro right now are probably like, I don't know if I want to listen to this. This doesn't sound very fun. This doesn't sound very sexy, it's not gonna give me a boner. I do not give a fuck. You need to sit the fuck down in your chair and listen to this. This is very important. This is extremely important. You need to listen to it, you need to understand what's going on here, and you need to give a fuck. And for anybody who is actively enabling predators in this lifestyle, you need to fuck all the way off. This is not okay, and you we need to do better. Honestly, as a community, as a cuckolding lifestyle, we need to do better. We have to do better. We have to. She is a friend of mine, uh, goes by the name of Angie, and I've known her for a very long time. And she has an important story to share on the show today. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Angie, say hello to all the listeners. Hello, everyone. So, Angie, you and I first met. God, now how long is it ago?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

It's been several years, probably like at least five or maybe even five years ago, probably.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, at least. Uh it's a long time ago that we we met. And um we've been friends since then. We've kind of seen each other at different events and have friends of friends uh who are close. And and I've enjoyed our friendship over the years. You've been such an amazing person in this lifestyle and so smart, badass, like badass in this, like very like, you know, this woman is just such a strong woman, really. The strength and intelligence that you have. I've um felt like felt that towards you and your your circle of friends as well over the years. And I just I've always looked up to you and and hold you in a highlight. And I feel like, you know, yeah, that that things um that the things that have happened have been so shocking. So I it was not that long ago um that I learned about something that happened that was really fucking shocking. I was uh a post in a group where I'd heard um, and it I was I was honestly, I've haven't been that shocked in a very, very, very long time. I was really uh horrified to hear that something awful had happened to you. And um, my friends were also horrified too, were like, what the fuck? Um, so I appreciate that you're coming on the show today to tell your story about what happened and so that we can all understand what happened, but hopefully learn from it as well. So, do you want to start out by um explaining a little bit of the background of what happened to you?

rigger Warning And Why Speak

ackstory And Early Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, thanks, V. And thanks for all the really nice words that you said. I really appreciate that. And Ditto, right back at you, stepping into this world all those years ago, learning that there was a woman who was really talking about a lot of the things that I cared about and was really um paving the way and making a place for sisterhood within this community and for women to gather together and to support one another. Like you were the OG at all of that. And it was just from jump a place within your group and your community that I knew that I felt safe. And and you have always continued to provide that feeling for me. So I really appreciate all of that and thank you for all of that. Um, and before we really dig in, I guess I feel compelled to kind of issue a bit of a trigger warning for folks because the things we're gonna be talking about here are tough. Um, this conversation is going to talk about things pertaining to sexual assault and trauma responses and community harm. And I just want to make sure that if you are listening to this and if those topics are going to be triggering for you or difficult for you to consume, I just would encourage you to take care of yourself and maybe stop at this time because we're gonna be stepping into some spaces that are pretty tough to talk about. Um so yeah, going back to maybe even starting a little bit after the fact, um, because I you had mentioned that you had read a post in a community group that I had put out there. And um, yeah, that happened in December of 2024. I put a statement out um on Telegram about something that had happened to me earlier that year in August when I was at a gathering, a private gathering of friends from this community um celebrating somebody's birthday. And what happened to me at that event uh was that I was raped. And I was raped in a setting where I knew the vast majority of people that were there. Um, I never in a million years would have thought something like that could happen to me. And I have spent the last 18 months since it happened really trying to understand why and how it could happen and how things played out the way that they did in the aftermath. Um and so to do that and to kind of really go back and provide the whole arc for what happened on that night in August of 2024, I have to go back even a few years before that, because just like you and I met years ago, V, I met the person that did this to me years ago. Um and this is somebody that you know, it's somebody that many people know. And it is um a story that has been really hard for a lot of people to hear and to honestly believe. And it has really torn apart the seams of my life and it has really impacted a lot of other people uh tremendously. Um so yeah, I guess taking it back to the time when he and I even met, like we were friendly with each other for a couple of years early on in my experience within the community. Um, we had had, you know, some casual encounters um at community events um at one point. I um had been married at one point while I was in the community, and um my my husband at the time and I went and saw this person um for an evening and spent some time with with them that evening, um, you know, in the context of um kind of uh an opportunity to spend time together and have some private time and some play. Um and we were friends. And that was kind of just it, casual acquaintances slash friends, you know, for the first couple of years. Um, but then our group of friends uh kind of started to coincide a little bit more, and we were um, you know, really getting close to the same people, both as friends and partners and things like that. And so, you know, there has just been time that our paths have crossed a lot, and as we got a little bit closer, you know, there were some things going on in that person's life in terms of illness within his family, um, that when I was kind of there as part of his support system for that. One of the things he and I had always done a lot of connecting around was kind of spiritual conversation, and um, he knew that I was really involved in plant medicine work. So I've done a lot of work with um ayahuasca as a plant medicine and psilocybin. And, you know, those those medicines have really helped open me up in many ways in my life, and I would share some of that with him. And he expressed a lot of interest in doing some of those things as well. Um, but things started to really shift a little bit at a point where um I started to become really close with a woman that he was in partnership with. He they were close and they had a special relationship, a special connection. Um, but I got to be really close with her and her husband. And, you know, there came a time in that friendship when I went out to visit them and lead them through some plant medicine ceremonies. Um, and so I was at their at their place and I had stayed there. And, you know, the week after I left, uh, he actually was going out to visit them as well. And one of the things that came into my awareness pretty soon after that visit was that um he had seen apparently like my luggage tags were torn off of my suitcase and put in the trash in the bathroom in their guest house, and he saw them and he apparently was really upset that I had been there, that I had been there, and he didn't like that. And I wasn't really sure why. I didn't really understand that at the time, but you know, I was like, okay, well, whatever. You know, I just kind of moved on from that, and we still kind of floated in and out of the same spaces.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Did he say why he was upset with that?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

I think it I think it came out later that there was just some sense of like she was his, not mine, you know, and how me getting close to her felt threatening to him. And it felt like that that became clearer and clearer as time went on. But at the time I was really confused by it. I didn't really understand what bothered him about that, but he confronted her about it and he actually confronted, not confronted, but like it came back to other people that I was close to, that I am close to, that he was like, you know, talking about me having been out there visiting and that that was like problematic for him.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Okay.

Strange Visit And Unease

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Um so then like after that time, you know, I just was like, okay, well, that's a little strange, but whatever. Um, so that was probably around like the fall, some fall of 2023, right? Um and so the next time he and I really interacted much, I think, was maybe New Year's of that year. We were both at the same lifestyle event and we um had seen each other and greeted each other, and everything, I think, was fine, you know. But prior to that, I know that there had been another event where he had been present at where there had just been a lot of tension that had built one night in a room party, and you know, he had kind of flown off the handle and exhibited some really troubling behaviors at this particular event. So, you know, kind of thinking about that timeline leading up to that is, you know, the season when like the summer of 23 there was a lot of stress in his life due to family illness. And then into the fall of 23, finding my tags, having a little bit of an uh a disproportionate uh upset and reaction to me having visited them. Then there's this lifestyle event where um, you know, he got very um aggravated with and antagonistic with another person, and it ended up in a physical kind of altercation in a room one night um where a woman, you know, kind of got got hit in the face. Oh wow, yeah, because of, you know, his upset about that. Um and in the aftermath of that event, I mean, he really went after the guy who had pissed him off at the event, he kind of really went after him too and tried to, you know, impact his reputation a bit within that, within that, you know, event space and within that community. And so it's like these troubling kind of anger issues are popping up and you know happening. And then I am at the same event with him in um New Year's of that year, and everything was relatively normal as far as I could tell. Um, but one night I still don't really know what was going on exactly, but it has left me with a pretty unsettled feeling now, knowing what happened to me now, and some of the things that happened along the way. I'm still not really sure what was going on this night, but I got a knock on my door and it was kind of this urgent knock, and I went to the door and he was standing there and he was crying and he was looking really troubled. And I invited him into my room wanting to see if he was okay, you know, and um he saw that my my girlfriend, my roommate, was in the room with me too, and she was in the bathroom getting ready, and he like looked a little surprised to see her. Um, you know, but I just was like in take care mode, right? Like, what's going on? Are you okay? And, you know, he sat on my bed and just, you know, started crying and he didn't really say anything. So I just comforted him and I tried to like give him a hug and was just sitting with him, and there weren't a lot of words. It was very interesting. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of him coming to the room was or what his upset was about. Um, but eventually, like he kind of pulled himself together and he left the room and we didn't really interact again that rest of that whole event weekend. But it was a very bizarre situation, right? And it kind of stuck with me. My roommate was like, What was that about? You know? And I still don't know, right? But I have questions about, you know, now, knowing what I know now, like maybe there was a different motive for coming to my room. I have no idea, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah.

lant Medicine Requests And Volatility

SPEAKER_00 16:36

So then we kind of step into the new year, and you know, the best, you know, kind of in my remembrance of the timeline, we're now in 2024. And his friend, you know, and I had continued to get closer. She and I are very, very close to this day. We're very, very close. I'm very close to her and her husband. And, you know, she would come out to visit me with some frequency, and I would go visit her too. And so on one of her visits out to see me, we, you know, we were being girls. We got like dressed up sexy. We like were taking pictures together. It was really fun. We took this little photo shoot and we were sharing some of the pics with some of our close friends and um partners. And so, you know, she decided to share some of the pictures with him. And she, I think, sent them to him either the night before she left or the morning that she was leaving here. And within a little bit of time, she had a voice memo back from him saying how upsetting those pictures were for him and how much he did not like seeing them. And, you know, that he confessed to her that he had some jealousies and some issues that he was dealing with with regard to her and my friendship. And, you know, he felt as though I was trying to take her away from him, that I was kind of getting in the middle of their relationship, you know, all of these things, very unfounded, you know, things where like she and I didn't really, you know, if we were talking about him in any regard, it was just more about like, you know, how she was experiencing the relationship and what she wanted and what she didn't want and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't mine to have like an opinion on, right? Like it was nothing that was my business. So that was a really confusing message. Um, you know, and so they talked about that and I just kind of stayed out of it. And then we kind of get into the spring, and he is starting to think that he'd like to do a plant medicine ceremony. So he's, you know, starting to talk to me more about that and reaching out more and more about that. And, you know, he at first wants to come visit. I live, you know, in Colorado and he was gonna come here and do a ceremony. I have a space that is like set for doing these types of ceremonies. Um and he wanted to come out here. And I was like, I just immediately had this uneasy feeling. And I was like, gosh, that feels like the idea of being knowing some of his volatility and some of the upset that he'd been experiencing. I really felt uncomfortable with the idea of him being here, you know, by myself in my space and that sort of thing. So I said to a friend, we had another mutual friend, and I said to him, you know, can you kind of come be present for that if that happens? And he was like, Yeah, no problem for sure. Um, because I just felt like I needed somebody to be here in case something went sideways. Um, because you never know how people are gonna impact react on hallucinogenes, right? So that didn't come to pass. It didn't work out for him to get out here when we were gonna do it. And so then I had said, Well, I'm gonna be in your area uh visiting my family in Illinois. I'm happy to maybe if I can detour up and do um a ceremony for you, kind of up where you live, like I I can I'd be happy to do that. So we kind of made that plan. And so the idea was gonna be we were gonna meet at a hotel and be in a hotel room for a ceremony. And I had a really uneasy feeling about that too. Um, but I just kind of was letting my, you know, I was overriding my system and saying it's fine, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Oh, I hate when we do that to ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, I know. And I hear so many points along the way in all of this when I've done that time and time again. So ultimately, again, I was saved. It didn't happen. My son's dad needed me to get back to Colorado. I didn't have time to make that detour. But when I shared that that wasn't gonna happen, he got really upset. And I had some text messages that were pretty angry that that wasn't gonna happen. And I was like, look, like I'm trying to do you a favor, but I have my own life and my own schedule. And then he kind of backed off and, you know, kind of acquiesced, whatever. And then ultimately I helped him figure out how to have a ceremony and kind of do that elsewhere. But it was just a very like, it just all these little like volatile things like kept popping up. So then we get to the summer, this event is getting planned, it's um our mutual friend's birthday, and the birthday party is gonna be here in Colorado, and she wants me to be there and she wants me to attend. Um, and he did not like the idea of that. Um, but she basically was like, well, it's a non-negotiable. I Angie's gonna be there and that's where it's gonna be. So that's um, you know, that's where we kind of lead into what happened on that on that night in August. So all of that history, right? We have all of that history leading up. Um, and then we kind of get to, you know, the weekend. The weekend gets here, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

How are you feeling about seeing him at that get together?

rriving With Tension And Smears

he Party Starts And Boundaries Blur

SPEAKER_00 21:55

So I helped plan in terms of like logistics, in terms of like getting the house. And things like that. I worked with my friend's husband on that. Um, and he did not, he was not a fan of me being involved in any of the details of this, right? But like I lived here, so logistically it just made some sense. So even leading into the weekend, like there had been a little bit of friction because he just really wanted me to know that like this is his thing, he's in charge, like kind of back off and you know, he's he's gonna be running the show. So I'm already nervous, right? And this weekend too, going into this weekend, like just separate from him, even right. First of all, like I it was a whole confluence of events for me anyway that weekend, because one of my partners is gonna be there, but we had like, you know, another of his partners was gonna be there. So it's all of these mixed dynamics, right? Where we're all gonna be sharing space for the weekend and it's new, right? So I'm already nervous about that and wanting to make sure that like I show up well, that I'm not, you know, having any sort of like problematic reactions or whatever, just like not wanting to get in my fields, wanting to make sure I'm focused on my friend. It's her birthday. I'm wanting to make sure that this is just really fun for everybody. But then I'm also hyper-aware that there's this tension between he and me that to my mind, I haven't done anything. And yet I'm realizing that he has really negative feelings towards me, and I'm feeling the energy emanating, like through texts and through conversations that we're having. It just did not feel friendly. So I was feeling pretty nervous heading into it, and it only got worse because I picked um one of my partners up from the airport, and we're driving up to where this event's gonna take place. And he shares with me that, you know, that this guy had said some things to him that were just entirely untrue about me, like had kind of said some things and made some claims that I had been saying things that just were very uncharacteristic for me that I never would have made. Um, and he's just like, I wanted to check with you because he's saying you said these things and like it's not making sense to me and it doesn't sound like you. And I was like, Yeah, I never said those things. And like, first of all, he would be the last person I would be using as a sounding board to say that type of thing. Like, we're not close. We don't have that type of closeness any longer. So why would I be sharing anything about you and me and our agreements with this person, right? Like, that's not anything I would do. So I'm already now getting even more nervous and we're like showing up to the space, right? And we get there and I'm like, I don't know if I should stay. And I remember going on a walk with my girlfriend, um, who it was this party was for her, and we just we were both feeling really like out of sorts and just really anxious. And I just said, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe it's better if I'm not here because this is feeling really awkward and I don't like it. Um, you know, and so I was in tears at that point, but we kind of just pushed through and we were like, okay, it's gonna be fine. Nerves happen, there's all sorts of things happening here in this whole, you know, weekend, all the different variables, like, chill, it'll be fine. Yeah. So we go into the evening, right? And, you know, he and I had some awkward like hello, but like not anything very warm at all. Um, and then we like are all gathering and we're all hanging out, and we are getting ready to like go into the party mode. We all get ready, get dressed, whatever, and you know, kind of kick things off. And he's, you know, the master of ceremonies, kicking everything off. And we, you know, kind of get the party started. And one of the things that I remember thinking is like, I'm sure he and I'll just avoid each other, right? Like, it's probably what'll happen. Like, he clearly isn't vibing me. So we're just gonna let that go. And so, you know, we we kind of get into the party, and at some point I realize that he's kind of like looking at me and like kind of like not targeting me in in necessarily a negative way at that point, but like just like kind of like hanging around me like he wants to like pair up with me, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

And I was really confused, but and then I'm kind of like, well, you know, maybe he wants to kind of work his tension out on me in the crowd, like right, because there had already been an agreement between my girlfriend and I. We had talked about this, and she was just like, I want everybody to like when we are having kind of the play party, let's everybody stay in the same room, let's all hang out together. And that was not something that was explicitly stated to everybody, but he knew that and I knew that, and like we just knew that like this this is not a thing where we want everybody peeling off and going off and being private. We wanted to just have like a really fun, you know, group vibe for her birthday. And so um, you know, he was like kind of making it clear that he was, you know, kind of wanting to engage with me. And I was like, all right, let's let's do this. Like, you know, and we were had previously been friends, and you know, we had had situations where we had spent time together like that before. So um, you know, I went with it. And it was, it was definitely different. It was, it was, and I want to be very clear, it was consensual, it was a different vibe than anything he and I had ever had. It was a little more primal, it was a little more, you know, kind of um just a really different flavor than anything he and I had experienced previously. But I I was there for it, you know, and I, you know, kind of consented to that. But it was interesting because after that, you know, my partner tapped on me at one point. He was like, Are you good? Like, you're was that okay? Like, why are you guys even, I thought you were gonna avoid each other kind of thing. I was like, no, it's fine. Like we, you know, it feels like maybe that's what needed to happen to break the ice or whatever, you know. So whatever. The night goes on. And then like another situation happens a little bit later, um, where he um was like wanting to do, he's uh he likes to flog people. So he had like wanted to do some vlogging. And, you know, there was this whole time where he was we were putting on a little bit of a show for people where he was like flogging me, and you know, there were some other, you know, things happening in the moment in terms of play around us, and it was kind of this like little scene that we were doing. And at one point he kind of got into it with the idea of like having somebody film it. So like I even know that he'd like picked a song that he wanted to play it, and he like had somebody take his camera and video him flogging me while I'm on my knees and like all this, and it was like pretty weird, and I was like, this is strange, but like okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Right, because he hadn't done that before, right?

solation And Sexual Violence

SPEAKER_00 28:40

No, not with me. I mean, and and kind of just this idea of like getting it on film was a little bit funny to me. Like I didn't understand that. Um, and so you know, kind of the song ended, and I was like, okay, if we're good, like, you know, kind of get up and kind of move on. Um, and people just kind of started dispersing at that point. But when I when I stood up, like that's this is kind of where things started taking a turn, right? And so it it became something else really quickly, you know. Um, I stood up and he just had this very different look on his face. And he was looking at me with like this intensity in his eyes that just felt really dark. Um and at that time, you know, nobody was really paying attention any longer to he and I. And at that point, he just kind of grabs me by the wrist and he looks at me in the eye and he just says, We're doing this. And I can't even describe to you what happened in my body. Like my stomach dropped, I lost sensation, like I just felt the blood rush out of me, and I just felt terrified. And I knew that I was in for something that was not going to be good. Um, and still at that time, like I just couldn't even move. I was like frozen in fear. And he grabbed me by the wrist and he pulled me across a room and he took me into the storage room and turned the light on and shut the door behind us. And he didn't say anything to me at the time quite yet, but he just pulled me across the room, pushed me in front of him, and he there was a couch in the storage room, and he just pushed me down and he put my face face down, and he like grabbed me around the waist and just like positioned me back up against him so my back was to him. And he just kind of had his head hand on my head, like kind of pushing me down, and he just analy penetrated me, like right then.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Didn't say anything, uh didn't talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

He didn't say anything for a minute until he actually had penetrated me, and I was in pain. Um and he at that point kind of leaned over and like kind of was grabbing me more closely to him, and he started choking me and was kind of whispering down into my ear, like, you're gonna fucking take this. And I don't know, it just time stood still a little bit. I'm sure it wasn't more than a few minutes that this was going on. Um, but I remember distinctly like realizing how much pain I was in and how I needed it to stop. And I kind of got a hold of myself and I just turned around. I looked over my left shoulder and I looked him as closely in the eye as I could um from the position I was in, and I just said, if if you're gonna keep doing this to me, you've gotta look me in the fucking eyes. And it was at that point that like something just snapped in him, like something brought him out of whatever state he was in. Um and he just collapsed on the couch and started crying. Oh wow. And I'm like, what the fuck? I said, why are you doing this to me? Why would you want to hurt me? And he just started spilling all the reasons that he hates me and all the reasons that he's wanted to hurt me. And it goes back, all this story, all that backstory that I gave. It was I took her from him. I took his friends were more loyal to me than they were to him. They stuck up for me when I when he would say things about me. Um, I wasn't there for him when he wanted to do these plant medicine ceremonies for his healing, like all these things about how I had wronged him. And he wanted to make me hurt. He wanted to make me pay for the things that he perceived that I had done to him.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Wow.

ftermath And The Need To Survive

SPEAKER_00 33:27

And I was just shocked. I just like could not believe what I was hearing. And that's when I understood that like he has been having a vendetta against me for a long time because he'd been talking about things that had happened over a year ago at that point. And I just was stunned. Um and I remember at one point hearing our friends kind of like recognizing that we weren't in the room any longer, and they were like, Where's Angie? Where's he? Like, what's going on? And like the music stopped and could hear people running up and down stairs. And eventually my friend and her husband came into the room and saw us, and they were like, What the fuck is going on here? And I just said, It's okay. Um, it's okay now. Like, we'll be out in just a second. And if we're not, please come back in, is what I said to them. And um, so yeah, at that point, we kind of I kind of pulled myself together and you know, left that room. And afterwards, I just went, there was like I remember the layout of this house to a T and I walked out the door to the right and went straight into my room and just shut the door and just sat on the floor and started sobbing. Like I don't I didn't know what to do, where to go, what to say, if I should say anything. And I just felt lost. Um because all of the programming for me not to make a scene, not to ruin my friend's birthday, not to pull attention, not to, not to, not to all the things just like stuck with me. And I felt like I had nowhere to go or anything I could say in that moment. So it was wild. I didn't, I mean, I did say, I did share um with my partner that like something had happened and that like I didn't, it got dark. And he was like, that sounds really weird. Do I need to like figure something out here? Do I need to do something? And I was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to make a scene here. Um, but I do remember like at some point later in that evening, like my friend's husband checked in with me, and I just I immediately lost it. And he kind of took me aside and was comforting me and letting me cry to him um about like how I didn't like what had happened and that I that it hurt and that I didn't like it and it was ugly. And but I never at that time, I still didn't like say the word, you know, that he had raped me. And I couldn't bring myself to say that for a couple weeks after the event. So the rest of that weekend kind of goes by, and I think the things that stick with me so much are that like I continued to try and make everything okay. You know, what I understand now is that like my response in the moment was that I froze.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

And then in the aftermath, what I did was fawn. And I have learned a lot about trauma responses through therapy, through group work, through support, all of these different things. I've had to learn what happened to me and why I reacted or responded the way that I did that night and in the weeks after word.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Right. And I think it it'd be really difficult for people to under to even try to understand what that would be like to go through because it's so easy to think like, oh, well, if that happened to me, I would have said this and that, and I would have done this and that and whatever. And I don't know. I I can somewhat understand how you were feeling in that in that situation. I was 14 when I was raped and I was unconscious, and I woke up to some stranger raping me, and I did not process that for years. So the fact that it took you a couple weeks to process the terminology around this is pretty fucking amazing, honestly. But people don't realize that. People don't realize how how long it actually takes for you to really work through all of this. So, Angie, uh, you you mentioned this word fawning, and I'm I'm not familiar with it. Um, what is that and and what does it mean?

reeze And Fawn Explained

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah. Good question. It's uh something I've learned a lot about in the last 18 months. And, you know, basically what it is is this thing that happens when your nervous system decides that like the safest thing that you can do to survive something, a threat, whatever, is to appease the person that caused the harm. And so it's often looked at to be something that discredits victims in situations when they, you know, um, I've actually talked to two people who like ended up having to like stay the night with somebody who raped them because they were afraid of like getting out of bed and like causing more of a scene or something like that. Um, it's not confusion about what happened, it's just kind of this trauma response that gets wired in often in childhood that if you go small and make somebody else comfortable, that's the way you stay safe. And so for me, the way that showed up, uh, which has been really difficult to process, um, is that like the morning after he raped me, um, he asked my friend if I would be willing to like come talk to him. And I got really kind of my stomach was like in knots, but I just remember saying, yes, but I need you to be there. Like you need to be in the room with us. Um and so I went in to talk to him, and again, he was in tears, you know, and I sat with him while he cried and I comforted him. And it feels so gross in my nervous system, or even just like in my experience in general, to know that that's what I did, to comfort him, to make it okay for him, so that he wouldn't keep coming after me, that he wouldn't want to make me the bad guy again, that he wouldn't try to isolate me from things because he sees me as the problem. And I just felt this need to like appease and appease and appease. And even in the days that followed, you know, there was a text message that he sent me a few days after. Um, because we did not, like, when the time was over, like we did not address each other, we didn't acknowledge each other, we just left. And um he sent me a text message a few days later. And in that message, he was apologizing again and wanted me to know that he was going to be getting therapy, that he knew he needed help. And I responded to that, you know, kind of being, you know, affirming that like therapy is a good idea and that like, you know, this this doesn't have to like define who you are, and that, you know, we can just move forward. Like, let's just like move past it. Um, and that's come back to bite me. You know, people have learned about that text message. They've learned how I, you know, was fawning all over him the next day, trying to just make sure everything was like fine and that we could just like avoid each other the rest of the weekend and it just like would be okay. So that's that's been really hard. I've just like felt really a lot of deep shame around that, and I've had to really look through that because it felt like I kind of participated in erasing what he did. Right. And I know now why that was happening and why I did that, but it still doesn't, it's still something that's really hard to to reconcilance it with.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

So what was the what what what happened after that? Like, did you a couple weeks go by, you're like, okay, this this was not okay, this was not right. Where do you go from there?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

I finally admitted to my friend whose birthday it had been, and to my partner that that's what it was, that that's what happened in that room, and I told them the full story of it. Um and so, you know, at that time then my partner confronted him and said, This is what Angie said happened, and I need to hear from you like what happened in that room. And, you know, there was really nothing to deny in terms of, you know, he wasn't admitting to that word, but like, I don't even know if that was asked of him, but like he corroborated that like what I said happened in the room happened.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Okay.

aming Rape And Knowing The Law

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Um, but beyond that, what he really admitted was that he had wanted to hurt me and that that's why what happened happened. Um, again, we're not using that terminology. He's never admitted that like that's what he did to me. He just has admitted to other people and me that he wanted to hurt me, and he has admitted that to, I think, including me for people that I'm aware of. But then very quickly thereafter, the story started to change. Um and it also had changed to some people in the meantime, right? So his story about this whole thing has gone completely different depending on like which phase of the moon you ask him in, right? Like sometimes it was a BDSM scene, gone awry. Well, this person was never somebody I was a BDSM partner to. He flogged me that night in front of the group, but that was not a BDSM scene, right? Like it was playful and videoed, and like it was not anything that was. Intended to be like a domination scene on me. Um, and you know, he has, you know, said that he thought he had my consent. Well, my consent was never asked for, you know. One of the things that I've really had to learn about, and you know, I'm an attorney, I don't think we've said that here. Um, but I've really had to go deep into understanding the law about rape in Colorado. And I've had to analyze every element of it so that I could understand every step of the way what had happened to me. And that's the only reason I feel comfortable even using the word.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

But it is a word that matters. And people I've learned are really uncomfortable with that word. It's a not, it's not a pretty word. Right. And people are like, you know, that's a very serious accusation. And I'm like, no shit. It was a very serious occurrence.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah, experience. Experience. Yeah. Violation.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

You know, it's it's one of those things that, you know, I even had to go through the process of like meeting with a district attorney a couple of times. I had to talk to other lawyers to make sure that I was looking at all of this properly. I talked to civil law firms about the elements of what it would look like. You know, I have sat with multiple victims' rights organizations to talk about whether they would be advocates for me if I decided to move forward in these processes. And at every turn, you know, everybody's very encouraging. But at the same time, you know, for a woman who is sexually liberated, the legal system's not made for people who want to show their kind of sexual freedom. You know, this is not something that is going to be looked upon easily by Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Because when you make a when you go take someone to court, when you there's charges and there's there's a public court record, right? Like your lifestyle is then on dis full display, right?

hy Reporting Can Expose Everyone

SPEAKER_00 46:16

It absolutely is. And so, I mean, I think the thing that's important for me, like I've received a lot of backlash from people for saying, why didn't you press charges? Right. And I get the question, like if you if this really happened, why didn't you? Why didn't you go to the police and why didn't you press charges? But the reality is, you know, not only would that bring everything to like public record like you're talking about there, it also exposes the you know, government names and identities of everybody with and who is at the party that night. And that becomes a matter of public record. Oh shit. Yeah. I have a child, you know, he's going to know everything as well. And, you know, no matter what I choose to do with my life, like my child doesn't, you know, need to have what happened to his mom be a part of, you know, public record in his life. And the reality is that the legal system just is not designed around handling something like this. Like they're looking at a very narrow archetype of who the credible victim is. And that's somebody with no prior sexual history, no unconventional relationship structures, no evidence of like enthusiastic participation in any sort of sexual situation. And in all of the conversations that I had with legal professionals and rape advocates about this, they basically just said, be ready, be ready to have your entire life spread open and skewered and to be discredited and to have all of these things called into question and to not just pull your life through the mud, but all of your partners, all of your friends. And it's gonna just create a lot of chaos in your life. And the reality is that no matter what you, no matter how well the legal definition of something is constructed, you are still working with a jury of people who are going to be looking and judging a situation, not based on what actually happened in the room, but by what is put on trial about the victim instead of the actual perpetrator.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Now, I know you said that you this whole experience has made you really look into the law around consent and rape.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Can we talk a little bit about that? Because like I feel like I don't I don't know all of that stuff. And I feel like most people really don't. But how how what how did all of that apply to this? What happened with you?

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking it. Um so the reality is so in Colorado, uh, rape is actually defined as sexual assault with penetration. And for something like this to be considered rape, there must be voluntary consent at the moment of penetration. And the way the law breaks down, there are many ways in which consent can be given, you know, verbally, enthusiastically, all of that. It can also be revoked at any time. But what the law consistently does say is that a matter as a matter of law, when either force or coercion is present in a situation, consent is not present. Consent is negated. So it does not require a verbal no, it does not require physical resistance. But if there is a presence of fear, of force and of coercion, and somebody submits or freezes due to those things, consent has been revoked.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

And so there are also, and this is not an element or anything, but there are contributing factors too. So um on top of the fact that like I did freeze, I was in deep fear, and I was forced into the room and into position.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

You were taken away from everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah. Yeah. And then for anal penetration to take place without warning, like that's not a minor shift in activity, right? Right. It's a really significant escalation, and that requires like clear agreement. So when you look at it up against the words of the law, when like somebody grabs you, pulls you into a room, isolates you, forces you into position, escalates to a more invasive act without agreement, chokes you and continues while you're still frozen in fear. That's not consent. And there is not legal ambiguity. Wow. So, you know, there's uh other elements that we could, you know, break out, but at the end of the day, like that is the way that it is looked at in the eyes of the law.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Now, how trial plays out, how juries work. You know, those are things that are wild cards.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

I hate that all of this happened to you, but I absolutely fucking hate that what what really makes me even more angry is that the fallout from all of this has been so disappointing, disheartening, and just pisses me off so much. So, what happened after this with those close to you, those further away from you in the lifestyle, in the lifestyle community? What happened since then?

ommunity Fallout And Secondary Trauma

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah, talk about hating what happened at that point. Um, you know, kind of what I've grown to learn through the process of going through a support group the last few months and therapy the last 18 months. Um, you know, when something happens like this, there's obviously like the initial trauma that occurs just from the assault itself and the act of violence. But when it comes out in a community setting, and the community certainly, I want to be very clear, I've had a very good support system. I've had very close friends who have stood by me every step of the way, who have absolutely had my back and believe me and beat the drum for me. And I'm eternally grateful for all of that. That is not the majority experience I've had, or at least like the loudest, maybe. But that support has been crucial to me, kind of moving through and getting to the point where I'm at today. But I can't underscore enough like how secondarily traumatizing it was to have a real lack of support from the community at large. And I do believe, like, you know, in the months after you were asking about that, like in the aftermath, I really did kind of keep my conversation about this mostly pretty close to my very inner circle. But then I did engage in a conversation with somebody who, you know, I wasn't super close with, but like I was friendly with and considered to be a friend. And, you know, that individual kind of asked me a lot of questions about this. And I agreed to have this conversation too. Like I I can't even remember. I might have prompted the initial conversation. Um, but then in the, you know, after we started talking about it, he kept, you know, kind of asking me follow-up questions and we had some very lengthy conversations. And after my conversation with him, he went and had a conversation with the person who did this to me. And after, you know, he deemed, after talking to me and talking to the other person, he came back to me and he said, I have decided that what happened to you wasn't rape. Oh my God. And that's not what this was.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

So he did his own little investigation and that he me he made the ruling, according to him. Absolutely. Why am I not surprised about that?

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Right.

unknown 55:00

I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Um and that was really painful, I will say. Like that was something that I don't, I don't know. Like recovering from something like that. It just it it cut so deeply and it hurts so deeply to have the truth, my experience, everything just completely invalidated and minimized. And that continued on. Like, this is not a person who has a quiet voice. This is not somebody who doesn't have a platform. I mean, this is somebody who has credibility. This is somebody who, you know, has a lot to say about a lot of things. Um, and you know, since that time, he has been a pretty big supporter of the person who did this to me. Um, he's helped him kind of come up with some strategies of how to talk about this and how not to talk about this and how to get back into spaces. And it's been very successful. You know, the person who did this to me is attending events, has has got a new lifestyle girlfriend and is parading around with her on his arm. And this basically didn't even happen so far as he's concerned.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

This makes me livid, honestly. Makes me so fucking livid. Um, so just to be clear, these are bulls in the lifestyle that we're talking about, right? Okay. Correct. Correct. Wow. Um that's pretty fucked up. It makes me really sad, it makes me really angry, and I'm, but it's also pretty typical. Uh we've seen something, I've seen something similar years ago in this lifestyle where one very well-known bull in the lifestyle was causing some problems. And it wasn't until the ladies start speaking up, like, what the fuck, that you know, shit got dealt with. But when it did, it was like a lot of the other bulls in the lifestyle were really not comfortable with addressing this issue. So I'm not shocked that this happened in this way. Like, I am I'm not shocked. I'm so fucking disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Yeah. I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

It's hard, right? Like, and even after like the you know, conversations where he like, you know, kind of declared to me that what happened to me wasn't rape, um, wasn't sexual assault. You know, I ended up deciding at that point, just like it's time for me to like make a statement publicly. And that's when you read the statement for me, right? I put out a pretty short statement. And I, you know, I just said on this date, this is what happened to me by this person. And I need you to know that this is what happened. And at the time, as you might imagine, like it was pretty, it was like maybe four months after it had happened. And so I'm still pretty deep in the trauma. I didn't have a lot of capacity or bandwidth to say, I'm open for questions, come talk to me. I just said, like, this is the truth. I'm not really open to talking about this, right? So I put that statement out. And, you know, had I had it all to do over again, you know, maybe I wouldn't have done it at that time. Maybe I would have had more to say. I don't know. But like that statement has been analyzed and it has been found to fall short by people and by people that I cared about and by people who I thought I was friends with. Um, it's been very painful because there's just been a lot of judgment about how other people think that I should have handled it and how they would have handled it had it happened to them. There are people who have, you know, intimated that I'm falsely accusing a black man of something as a privileged white woman. And like that is something that cuts me really deeply.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Because it's just for me, it couldn't be further from the truth, right? Like, and I just take very seriously, like, if there was a reason for me not to bring something forward like this, that might be enough to do it to me. But like the reality is I'm somebody who's really aware of the history in this country and the way that white women's accusations have been weaponized against black men. And it's violent and it's real, and it has left a lot of hurt and devastation in the past. And I carry that awareness. And at the same time, the modern data does not support the narrative that A, people falsely accuse at all. Like the rate of false accusations are somewhere between two and eight percent of reported rape cases, but it is likely to be on the lower end of that. And let alone like most rape accusations are within the same kind of racial category. And so then you take two to eight percent of all false accusations and think about how many of those today. So I just I don't even want to go down the rabbit hole of all of that, but the reality is like that is something that I deeply acknowledge. And at the same time, what is my motive here? Why would I ever falsely accuse somebody of rape? Like, of all the experiences I've had in my life, why would I need to do that?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

You know, we've all had, if you're in this lifestyle, you've had encounters that you regret and that you wish wouldn't have happened. Oh yeah. And that you wish wouldn't have happened, and that you're like, I should have known better. Yeah. Those aren't rape. You know, those are not things that we're going to pry wolf on. Right. Because we understand the severity of it and this and the seriousness of the accusation. So, you know, I've I've gotten feedback about that. I've gotten feedback from people who said that my initial statement didn't even address the fact that we had consensually engaged earlier in the night. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Why does that fucking matter though?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

That doesn't negate anything, right? Right. Um, that there were substances at the party. Okay. Does that negate it? No. Like none of that negates anything. And, you know, if he wants to say that it negated his ability to make good judgments or his ability to know what's, you know, he's also said, like, I don't even remember. I don't remember a lot of things. I'm like, well, I remember every fucking detail of that night and will for the rest of my life. So I remember. And also, like, your lack of clarity about your experience doesn't mean you didn't do it. Right. Yeah. You know, like that's not a defense. And so all of the things that have come about from like that kind of community backlash have just been so painful. And, you know, for the most part, I've pretty much removed myself. I mean, I'm having this conversation with you. I still have my very close, like close-knit group of friends, but I'm pretty much absent, you know, in the vast majority of ways from all the things because I no longer feel safe, Venus. Like, not just physically, but like emotionally and mentally, psychologically, like all these different things, like all of that has just been so disrupted by this happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

I can't imagine. But yeah, I was very, very, very disappointing. I have been so disappointed in the reaction from the community in general. Um, but also not hugely surprised, but I just I really thought I expected better from from the couples, uh, from singles, from the bulls, for sure from the bulls. I expected better and more from them. Um, but I don't blame you for being done with this lifestyle and being like, I'm I'm out, like I don't feel safe. I haven't like I have had, I know in this lifestyle there are sharks out there. Um there, you might not see them, but you can feel them. You're as a woman, your gut instinct will tell you, I am not safe in this moment. There's someone near me that is not safe. And I have learned, I've talked to you about this before, I have learned to be very, very connected to that intuition feeling that I have. You have, yeah, because you have to. And I've ignored that to as you have too. Yep. We've ignored that before because we don't wanna be too much. You don't want to be an inconvenience, you don't want to be rude, you don't want to piss somebody off, you don't want to be the person who flakes at the last minute. You you don't wanna be, you know, letting people down or whatever, or you know, pulling attention or whatever the fuck reason, you ignore it, or sometimes we just tell ourselves as women, you know what, I'm just being paranoid. There's nothing that this person is doing wrong, like they haven't said anything wrong or anything, but you feel that deep inside you, you feel that I'm not safe here right now for some reason. And um, unfortunately, it's in our lifestyle. There are people, predators or people who are unsafe, especially wounded bulls. I know I have talked about the I wrote uh co-wrote a blog post about this. I did a fucking podcast episode with her about this topic. Wounded bulls, especially bulls who have work to do, they haven't done it. Um, but bulls who come from a deep place of insecurity or anger or resentment, those are the most dangerous. And they are in this lifestyle, and I hate to say it, but there's wounded bulls who are very active in this lifestyle, who've been active for maybe decades, who are not safe. And I think um it just makes me fucking angry knowing that this happened to you, knowing how people reacted to it, and um makes me really sad. It does.

unknown 1:05:16

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Yeah, one of the things I think I was so confused by, like I I think I just really had no concept for how much sympathy he would garner by kind of beating the drum the way he did after I put my statement out. And and what's really interesting to me, I read about this terminology that was coined by a philosopher named Kate Mann, and it's a word um called hypathy. Have you heard that word before?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

I've I've barely I'm I've barely heard about it. Uh, you have to explain this because I'm like, what is this? Hympathy.

impathy And Protecting The Accused

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Yeah. Hympathy is basically the disproportionate or inappropriate extension of. Sympathy, understanding, and concern toward men who are accused of wrongdoing, typically at the direct expense of the women who have been harmed. And it's kind of this idea that like, don't ruin somebody, you you don't want to ruin his reputation. He didn't mean it. Like that, it wasn't like that. It wasn't that harsh. Like, you know, you know. Yeah, like, come on. And do you really want to like ruin a man's life and like all of this stuff, you know? And it's like, and the thing that's really hard, you know, I can see like maybe other dudes banding around a dude in that way, right? Yeah. But there have been women who have exhibited that sentiment about this situation specifically, that that has been what cuts the most, right? Because I came into this community wanting to bond with women, wanting to lift women up, wanting to help women examine their own desires and open themselves up in ways that were not shameful, that were open, that were empowering. And to see women that I have sat alongside of and been friends with kind of take that approach. It's just really broken my heart so deeply because that's that's what I've always wanted to be here for is kind of the sisterhood aspect. And that doesn't mean that I think that we should believe everything all women say all the time, right? But the reality is if you look at the statistics of this type of thing, like women are not gonna lie about this very often. It's it's a pretty hard thing to do. And it's just like taking that seriously is, I don't know, just something I would I would have a really hard time not listening to a woman who told me that this was her experience. And so, yeah, between the woundedness that happens when people are feeling free and entitled to kind of take what it is they want and to not have to worry about how that impacts others, and then knowing that on the back end of that, they're going to garner the sympathy and the support of the community around them. And that at the end of the day, like I'm the one now walking around with a scarlet letter on my chest. Right. You know, I'm I like I'm the unsafe person now because I have the balls to like speak up about this and to actually tell the truth.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

Right. Which is why I'm having you on the show to share this story, because that's fucked up. That is so not right, honestly. It's so it just made it makes my blood boil. It makes me so fucking livid because this is not unique to your story, or it's not unique to the situation. This is how women are treated in general when these things occur, which makes me so angry. So um, I'm just glad that you are you've are in a place of healing. You are in a place where you can talk about this and put this out there, but it is sad that you are feeling unsafe in this lifestyle and walking away because you've been such a big piece of especially the female empowerment piece of this lifestyle. And it's just it makes me very angry knowing what what has happened. So, where where do you go from here? What is what is what what are the what are you what are your plans now?

ealing Plans And What We Owe

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

Um in terms of you know, just kind of my healing process and journey, you know, I'm still very focused on that. I'm like I mentioned, a support group that I'm in right now, and obviously continuing on with therapy. But for me, I think the biggest part of my healing now is learning how to speak about what happened to me and how to talk about the things that I've learned from it, you know, from a legal aspect, from a sociological impact of it, from the philosophical things that I've learned. Um, so for me, I I I do intend that like moving forward, I will continue to write about this. I have, you know, kind of started writing things and am pursuing putting those out there in a totally different avenue than I've done before. I'd like to start my own new podcast. I'd like to be talking about things because if I thought that I was passionate about sisterhood and women before this happened, it is only 10x for me moving forward. And like I know that my purpose moving forward is to find a way to platform women's voices and their stories and the hard realities and to believe them and to help share their stories. So that is gonna be, I think, the pinnacle of like my healing process is going to be around creating space for those conversations for women to have and for me to help do everything in my power to platform those conversations. But otherwise, it's I've gotten really private in many other regards. I've um, you know, kind of closed down my circle and I feel very protective of my life and my space and who has access to me anymore. And I really have used this also as an experience to draw just more inward to myself. And um I think that that's probably where I'll remain in terms of like my expression and how I, you know, choose to move through the world. I just don't see myself feeling comfortable or safe being in a bigger community like I was before, but I'm working towards peace.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

So I I find it's so brave of you to share that you this story today, and I'm so glad that you have. What do you hope that people get get from it, whether that be cucks, bulls, couples, ladies, anyone from this cuckolding, hot wifing lifestyle that may be listening?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

Yeah, I mean, there's so much, you know, that I would like people to kind of get from it. But the reality is like if you're somebody who is, you know, kind of carrying around anger and resentment, you don't have any business acting out all of that in sexual ways, right? So get the help that you need to not hurt other people. If you're a woman, surround yourself with other women. Learn how to activate your voice and to be strong in ways of knowing what you want and what you don't want. I think one of the things that I really want to make sure people know is that this is not an issue of consent. Like this person didn't want my consent. They were turned on by the fact that I was terrified. Right. Like that is not somebody looking for consent and wondering if consent was present.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

Um, so don't confuse this with that, but also lifestyle do better about educating about consent. Right. When do we ever hear about it? Right. We don't hear about it because it's a buzzkill. Like nobody wants to talk about that. Well, I'm sorry, it can be a buzzkill, or we can end up with situations that happen that are completely preventable. But this is not one of those situations. When somebody has a desire to harm and to hurt, that's called a hate crime. That's different. That's not what this was. So I really want to make sure people, because I do think that for the vast majority of bulls that hear this, they're like, Well, how did he know that consent wasn't there and all of that sort of thing? And I'm like, that wasn't the issue. If you're taking a woman into a room to hurt her, you know consent's not present. Right. You generally speaking know when you have somebody's enthusiastic and continuing consent for something.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

That's not what this was. Be aware, right? But more than anything, I would just like people to stop feeling like it is uh faux pas or not classy to talk about things that have happened. Like these are not things that women should have to suffer in silence and to be quiet about and to subversively like warn people about. You know, like these are things that we should be using our voice for and banging the drum and saying, This happened, this person did it, like, not safe, don't engage, like be there for that. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

We're so conditioned to not make people uncomfortable. Even back when we were talking about wounded bulls years ago, it was this fear of like, well, if we say this, then this is gonna make people upset. Like this could make somebody really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

And like tell the truth, gosh, people are really gonna have hurt feelings, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Well, yeah, and as women, we owe it to each other to have these open and honest and uh conversations to help protect each other.

unknown 1:15:35

Yeah, yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:37

We're so brave, Angie. Thank you so much for coming on the show to share your story. And I'm very sad that we're very much losing such an amazing person in this lifestyle, and it fucking makes me so angry that wounded bulls are out there just having a fucking great old time while uh women are hurting. Yeah, makes me mad.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

Well, thank you for sharing your platform with me and being a good friend and always, always, always being a sister to not just me, but to all the women that you show up for.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:15

Cheers to the sisterhood.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:18

Cheers to the sisterhood.

ow To Connect And Support

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

That's gonna be it for today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Make sure you go to VenusCuckledris.com. That's where you can book a private chat with me. And you can also join the Queen's Quarters community and get all the amazing benefits like the private podcast and the helpful cup tier, where you can get the key holding, the private Snapchat group, monthly private chats with me, and weekly live hangouts and invites to special live events. Oh, and you can also submit a question or confession for the show. Just go to VenusCuckledris.com and click on the link that says the podcast. Make sure you follow me on Blue Sky Social. Yes, I said Blue Sky Social Twitter. My handle there is at Cuckledress V. Alright, that's it for today's show. You guys will see you next time.